Brumation temperatures and health issues

[critterguy]

It seems brumation is a somewhat dicey business for blue tongues. Also, at least one breeder(James Wilson) has had success without it. Interestingly in captivity we often provide harsher "winter" conditions than the animals might experiaence in the wild...but even for bluetongues from tropical environs this seems effective at cycling them. In nature Northerns and even Easterns will experience frequent days that if they choose they can come out and bask to warm up. Some people have been doing this for years w/o any reported problems. However, it seems a few have issues with brumation causing or exaberating health problems. This is true for many reptiles in the wild, esp. those at the edges of their ranges where they are exposed to the most physiologically taxing conditions of colder winters and cooler summers. Their is at least one case of someone loosing a larger number of skinks during brumation, probably due to the temperatures where the animals were kept dropped below the LTmin for this species...which may not be very far from the temperatures we frequently provide. It'd be interesting to hear what people who are keeping large numbers of various sp. are currently doing.

What is the minimum temperature?(generally it seems most people aim for about 55-60. Seike mentions in his article in Reptiles no lower than 55 for Northerns and 45 for Easterns).
Is any heat provided to maintain this?
How many issues have you seen using your current method and what kind?
Do you take an individual animals behavior during brumation into account for increasing/lowering temperatures?

[Fatal_S]

I keep my brumators in dark bins at room temperature (72). No heat is being added this year. The issues I'm having are with IJs (RIs) and skinks with already lowered immune systems. My brumation conditions are quite harsh, but they proved very effective last year (2 litters when most breeders had no luck). However this is only my second year, so I don't have much experience.

[Katrina]

Great topic!

Brumation / surviving winter is always dicey, much more so in the wild than in captivity. I thought the only success with breeding Australian skinks without brumation has been in the first year of life. Have people bred Northerns older than one year without brumation?

I don't think that people have really had success with breeding tropical blueys using brumation. There has been some success but not consistently.

i read an interesting article on brumation a while ago: http://lllreptile.com/info/library/care ... brumation/ I found the part suggesting that talks about slight or even no temp drop necessary and suggests that just small changes might be enough.

Currently, for my blueys I have the Northerns in the basement, it is about 60-65 consistently. It won't get below that. They seem to be doing great so far, but were in good condition going in to it. I planned to do similar but warmer for my Meraukes, but then two of them bred 5 times in October before I could brumate them. I *think* it was due to the humidity drop right before winter - in the wild they would breed in the dry season so that babies are born in the wet season when food is abundant. So the female is not being brumated for obvious reasons. I am not sure if babies will result, but I'm hopeful. Hopefully in the next few years I can learn more about this. My guess might not be correct, but so far I think that the humidity drop before winter triggered the breeding. I had two Meraukes almost breed in May, but the female wasn't quite willing, and I could also correspond that to a local humidity drop. I guess time will tell.

[lemon1]

How long is the gestation period ? That would be really cool if you get some babies soon . I really want a CB baby Merauke

[Katrina]

I'm not entirely sure. Literature suggests for wild T. gigas skink it is about 3 months, but then the bluey bible has some cryptic little comment to the effect of 'in captivity gestation may be significantly longer'. So I'm not certain what significantly longer than 3 months is, but I guess after 5 months if there is no babies then I will assume she isn't gravid! She is right about 2 months now.

[Jeff]

How long is the gestation period ? That would be really cool if you get some babies soon . I really want a CB baby Merauke

Not many meraukes have been produced in captiviity yet, so an exact answer is not known. It is likely that the gestation period is somewhere around 100-110 days. Bill Schwinn would probably be the one person who has enough experience breeeding them to give actual data.

To Joseph, I have discussed this with James a number of times, and my impression is that he has not actually had time to prove his theory about this yet. He has successfully bred a couple species of snakes without cooling that are universally believed to absolutely require cooling in order to breed, but hasn't actually done it with bts (yet). James is one of the smartest breeders I have ever met, and I believe that his theory is most likely correct, but just not formally proven yet.

I would love it if it was possible to get my skinks to breed without cooling, but when you only have one chance a year to breed them, it is hard to try something different when you have had success with your current methods. I also think that MOST cooling related issues (not all) are due to lack of control over the temperatures. If you don't make absolutely sure that your minimum temperature is controlled, the skinks are likely to be exposed to dangerous temperatures. Humidity plays a significant role as well. When skinks are exposed to the minimum temperatures they can handle, "wet" is generally not a good thing. I firmly believe that one of the main reasons I have never had any issues with any of my skinks during cooling is because the air is so dry here.

I cool each species I keep differently, but all of my skinks have their temperatures regulated by extremely accurate thermostats during cooling. I set two separate minimum temperatures for each group. 8:00 am - 8:00 pm is daytime temps, then 8:00 pm - 8:00 am is night time temps. The heat is completely unrelated to lighting. All the skinks have their photoperiod reduced to either 4 hours of light a day, or 6 hours. My northerns are not closely regulated because they stay inside and never get close to the minimum temperature that would trigger heat to come on. They get no artificial heat, and the room they are in fluctuates between 77f and 65f. frequently they go for weeks without dropping below 69-70f. They obviously require very little cooling.

The temps I use for my other species are as follows:

easterns, daytime min. 65 nighttime min. 55
shinglebacks, daytime min. 60 nighttime min. 50

My meraukes are just kept with the northerns because I don't have anywhere else to put them. If I actually had time to breed them, I probably wouldn't cool them at all.

So far I have never had a single issue during cooling. Even if the cooling I do is not necessary, my skinks have been breeding very well, so it would be hard for me to change things up.

It is important to note that my shingles and easterns RARELY get down to the minimum temperatures I have set. It is just a precaution so that I KNOW they don't get dangerously cold. There is a very good chance that they don't need to get to those minimum temperatures.

[Lauriek]

I had an interesting experience with a pair of southern blotched bluetongues. I was given them in 2009. I didn't brumate them and they were in a viv inside. I had no idea of the sex of either. In about November 2010 mating took place, the first I witnessed and apparently the 'first' ever according to previous owner. They were approximately 6 - 7 years old and were purchased as babies by previous owner. The viv is not temperature controlled other than it has a basking lamp which goes on in the morning and off at night. The top of the viv has a large UV light and is partly covered with fly wire. So the viv temperature tends to mimic that of the house, to a certain extent, other than directly under the heat lamp. In March 2011 the female gave birth to 5 live healthy babies. Mating did take place in spring (Sep-Nov) last year but was unsuccessful as no offspring were produced.
Why the mating in my care and not with previous owner? I suspect it is the level of care. They are much better fed. Both have put on weight. The female is now much heavier that she was previously.

[critterguy]

So, Jeff, it seems that brumation in your case is moreso lack of food, and reduced photoperiod, than severely lowered temperatures. I was under the impression many people dropped blueys down to the low 60's/high 50's for the entire winter, similar to what is done for many snakes.

Fatal: 72 does not sound too severe at all.

[kl]

This is a great topic. I've heard that blue tongues that tend to do worse during brumation are long time pets (especially over weight shinglebacks) that have never been cooled before. One thing that I don't think you should ignore is when you find an animal that is in the middle of brumation suddenly out from hiding during the night or when an animal starts becoming active for a few days in a row despite cold temps. To me, this is a sign something is bothering them and I usually will warm that animal up for a day or so to make sure it is acting ok. Then, if everything seems ok, I try and get it back to brumating again. Some breeders recommend warming them up for a few hours every 10 days or so to encourage them to take a drink. I always get nervous about brumating animals (especially those that need really low temperatures).



KL

[critterguy]

KL: Interesting stuff! What temps would you call "really low"? I'm assuming you take blotchies down lower than other sp.?

Do you guys all have water available to animals in brumation? Or ever wake them up and offer water if not?

[kl]

I keep the blotchies in the 45 to 50 range at night though sometimes it can get lower at certain points. During the days I keep them in the low 50's. I depend on cold air coming through slightly open windows next to the cages.

I always keep water dishes in the cages during brumation though I hardly ever see them drink it.

KL

[critterguy]

Thanks for the info kl-hope the blotchie population in the US continues to swell. I currently have a Northern I am trying to brumate-he's being kept around 60-70. Behavior does not seem too much different from outside of brumation...more sleeping of course but still comes out on the occasion. If offered water he will drink it.

[Spindown]

both my merauke and northern are brumating, my merauke at about 60-65 and comes out every week and half-2 weeks to bask, i know she comes out occasionally to drink also. My Norther is brumating at about 65-75 (night - day) in another room and he drinks but doesnt really bask. When i see them active, I put the lights on so they can bask, and then they usually go back to brumation the next day after basking.

This is my first year brumating though. I'm being very careful to not disturb them, but when they come out I stick my head in and make sure they arent wheezing, etc, and appear healthy. This is kind of nerve racking

[Bird_Brain]

both my merauke and northern are brumating, my merauke at about 60-65 and comes out every week and half-2 weeks to bask, i know she comes out occasionally to drink also. My Norther is brumating at about 65-75 (night - day) in another room and he drinks but doesnt really bask. When i see them active, I put the lights on so they can bask, and then they usually go back to brumation the next day after basking.

This is my first year brumating though. I'm being very careful to not disturb them, but when they come out I stick my head in and make sure they arent wheezing, etc, and appear healthy. This is kind of nerve racking

I highly suggest increasing the meraukes temps. While some have had success brumating that low, I have experienced death with temps that low. I did not intentionally brumate at those low of temps, I moved to a new house and basement got colder than I expected while I was out of town for work. Ended up loosing several keis due to temps in those ranges.

[Spindown]

yikes! I will turn up the heat in that room. The only reason they are so low is because she is in a different room than the rest and my bedroom is hard to heat, but I will figure something out. No wonder she has been coming out to bask.
Thank you for letting me know!

[critterguy]

Reptileking: We probably don't want to do experiments but I wonder if the low temps killed them or if it was the drop that did it.(acclimatization, or rather lack thereof)

[Bird_Brain]

Reptileking: We probably don't want to do experiments but I wonder if the low temps killed them or if it was the drop that did it.(acclimatization, or rather lack thereof)

Yeah, I am not willing to try to figure it out! At that time, I had Indos, Keis, Northerns, and Tannies. The only affected species were the Keis and Indos. I lost by breeding pair of Indos and their baby as well as several Keis.

[critterguy]

Another member on here lost quite a few Northerns-not all died that were exposed...but I don't think it was known how low the temperatures got as they were in a garage.

It is interesting that the Tanimbars did ok even though Tanimbar is latitudinally pretty similar to PNG etc. and likely has equally mild weather. If scincoides spread from Aus up then maybe they retained some of the cold hardiness? Or perhaps scincoides were predisposed to being successful in cooler environments and spread North to South. Anyway, drawing way to early of conclusions.

[Katrina]

I've always found it interesting that IJs and Tannies seem to respond to brumation and 'regular' breeding practices so much better than the gigas skinks. I really do think that there is something to your idea about the scincoides genes influencing their hardiness etc, but it is too early to draw conclusions.