1 Beak Baby Coming Right Up.

[Zach]

We also have to remember that most all IJ's have fatter wider heads than the rest of the common BTS we see (easterns and northerns), and we really don't see that many baby IJ's, but I have seen baby IJ's that look very similar to mine. Sassy is also (I presume) wild caught, so who knows if she had a bad diet in the wild, or with the previous people who had her (Pete Weiss). To me, she doesn't have any visual developmental problems whatsoever -- her head is on the smaller side, but I don't see it as that unusual, that is, I don't look at the head and think "wow, there must have been some kind of problem early on" -- I mean it isn't THAT small at all...she's female, she's a small IJ to begin with, therefore her head is also fairly small. But she also has a very unique face (I think).

What do people think? Does anyone look at her and think "wow, that's different..."




And her glorious mate!

[Fatal_S]

Sassy's head does have a different shape than Slurps. There's a drop in front of the eyes, and then a quick drop for the nose. Her chin also seems to be a different shape. But they are in different positions, so this could be a positional change. To be honest when I see that picture, I do immediately notice a difference in head shape. I'm not saying it's bad looking even in the least, just different from say Slurps longer, streamlined head.

We'll never know how exactly Sassy got that shape, but I'd say it's strongly genetic, as she passes it along well. If she is wild caught, then it could have been a local variance, or just a recessive trait. I wonder how her life would have been in the wild. It may have affected her, it may not have. Would she have bred in the wild, as wild animals seem to have ways of not passing on genes that could be detrimental.

If she's healthy with you, obviously it's not a bad thing to be. It's a unique, and rather endearing trait, which I think makes for some amazingly cute babies. However, if this trait was continuously bred out, or if a malnourished BTS had it's head change too much, I could see the potential for the brain not having enough room. This would likely take several generations to achieve, or a horrible diet. I also think that we can tell BTS tend to be very good at keeping out bad genes (mother turns and kills a newborn with a defect for example), so if there was going to be any very bad side effects, I really don't think the BTS would make it easy for us to create that.

[Zach]

It's interesting you say Slurpy has a streamlined head because his head is a large reason why the beak babies heads are so fat and wide....Slurp's has a BIG wide triangular head. If it were slightly shorter, Slurpy would in fact be a beak baby himself....so throw in Sassy's small little head, and voila. So I guess, Slurpy is equally responsible for the beak babies funny look when it all comes down to it . I'll bet if we bred Nona with Sassy, the baby's heads would look completely normal (Renee's Nona has a more regular long narrower head).

This is all interesting!

[Geoff Gates]

What do people think? Does anyone look at her and think "wow, that's different..."

Nope. Except for the fact that she is a big fat mama.

Have a look at the dewlap around her neck.

[Tattoo]

They look delicious to me Zach. If their heads are wider than the norm wouldn't that make up the difference for lack of length? Seems you would have had some health issues in at least one of the offspring by now if the head shape was an issue. How old are Slurp and Sass?

[Bird_Brain]

Even if Sassy's short head was caused by malnutrition, would it even be considered a genetic factor?

[Zach]

Even if Sassy's short head was caused by malnutrition, would it even be considered a genetic factor?

I was thinking the same thing -- if a bluey has a development problem because it was mistreated, I'm not sure that would affect the babies if the babies had proper nutrition....

[NomadOfTheHills]

German shepherds have been bred (and inbred) over hundreds and thousands of years....

Considering the breed was invented in 1899.... lol



I think I agree that Sassy has a distinct head, whereas Slup while large (do to age?), has a more typical BTS shape.

We still don't know much scientifically about IJs as it is... I would love to do my masters on them... a nice dream, I doubt it will happen though haha!

I was thinking the same thing -- if a bluey has a development problem because it was mistreated, I'm not sure that would affect the babies if the babies had proper nutrition....

You are correct, it wouldn't.

[Leigh]

Perhaps she just landed nose down from a height, on the way out haa haa

[Marie]

I don't even know what a "normal" IJ head looks like. My three IJs each have three distinct head shapes.

I've been told that Popsicle has a wide, fat head.


LTs head is long and skinny.


Then there's the beak baby.

[Fatal_S]

They look delicious to me Zach. If their heads are wider than the norm wouldn't that make up the difference for lack of length? Seems you would have had some health issues in at least one of the offspring by now if the head shape was an issue. How old are Slurp and Sass?

Do you really think the brain would just mold itself to fit the cavity? I'm not sure, but I'm fairly certain a change like that would take many, many generations to do. Brains just don't seem likely to change shape without a lot of work. I think that the short/wide head would just have less room front to back, but lots of room in the sides. IMO I just don't think the brain would change shape at all for this, until it's actually being squisheed.

[NomadOfTheHills]

BTS are not people, our brains fill our head. BTS have tiny brains, they do not fill their skull. I am sure there is plenty of room lol

[Fatal_S]

Hmm, Nomad, you speak much sense. I wonder how much closet space they have in there...

[Zach]

German shepherds have been bred (and inbred) over hundreds and thousands of years....

Considering the breed was invented in 1899.... lol



I think I agree that Sassy has a distinct head, whereas Slup while large (do to age?), has a more typical BTS shape.

We still don't know much scientifically about IJs as it is... I would love to do my masters on them... a nice dream, I doubt it will happen though haha!

I was thinking the same thing -- if a bluey has a development problem because it was mistreated, I'm not sure that would affect the babies if the babies had proper nutrition....

You are correct, it wouldn't.

Maybe it was named in 1899, but the breed took a lot longer than that to get it to the point of being named. Way longer than 100 years to get it to the point it was at even in 1899. And the example was only used in general to show the extent it takes to shape a dog breed compared to one generation of IJ's.

[NomadOfTheHills]

I know, I was just being annoying haha.

[Leigh]

They look delicious to me Zach. If their heads are wider than the norm wouldn't that make up the difference for lack of length? Seems you would have had some health issues in at least one of the offspring by now if the head shape was an issue. How old are Slurp and Sass?

Do you really think the brain would just mold itself to fit the cavity? I'm not sure, but I'm fairly certain a change like that would take many, many generations to do. Brains just don't seem likely to change shape without a lot of work. I think that the short/wide head would just have less room front to back, but lots of room in the sides. IMO I just don't think the brain would change shape at all for this, until it's actually being squisheed.

There's nothing to say it has anything to do with skull shape,unless an xray was taken, maybe the larger head comes from a champion snail smashing gene from times gone bye,what I mean is it could all be muscular not bone in the meathead cases.The beak babies could of been an evolutionary change, that just happened to be seen because of being captive bred , Lisa would you be willing to say what you changed in Ralphies life style to get him back on track?maybe there was something obvious. I do know that a lack of calcium in Iguanas makes the the top lip and nose retract,shrinking the head a bit.

[Zach]

Lisa would you be willing to say what you changed in Ralphies life style to get him back on track?maybe there was something obvious.

Yeah, I'm curious too what the big change was? I can't imagine something that would affect "head size" to that extent...

[Marie]

IMO, it's just a genetic trait. I have a pointy beak nose and so does my mother. Whether my diet consists of a healthy blend of fruits, vegetables, and lean meats or whether it consists of McDonald's french fries and greasy burgers, I'll still have a beak.

As for brains and blueys, the little brain is in the area behind the eyes, so the size of the front part (the beak) really wouldn't have much to do with brain. Isn't the front part just an open cavity?

[Tattoo]

IMO, it's just a genetic trait. I have a pointy beak nose and so does my mother. Whether my diet consists of a healthy blend of fruits, vegetables, and lean meats or whether it consists of McDonald's french fries and greasy burgers, I'll still have a beak.

As for brains and blueys, the little brain is in the area behind the eyes, so the size of the front part (the beak) really wouldn't have much to do with brain. Isn't the front part just an open cavity?

You mean they are air heads??

[Lisa]

IMO, it's just a genetic trait. I have a pointy beak nose and so does my mother. Whether my diet consists of a healthy blend of fruits, vegetables, and lean meats or whether it consists of McDonald's french fries and greasy burgers, I'll still have a beak.

As for brains and blueys, the little brain is in the area behind the eyes, so the size of the front part (the beak) really wouldn't have much to do with brain. Isn't the front part just an open cavity?

You mean they are air heads??

Yep. They even used to have blonde hair

I don't think the physical development of them has alot to do with their brains per se. I think it's more to do with diet and husbandry; what they eat and how their bodies process it with the help of their own organs, enzymes, proteins, hormones, metabolism etc, as well as our artificial assistance with heating, UV access or vitamin/calcium supplementation. As an example, MBD is a preventable physical abnormality caused by poor diet and husbandry.

Having said that, I don't think that Sassy and her babies are deformed, although it's possible a short head trait may have been passed down the line.

As well, the physical differences between the sub species needs to be taken into consideration.

In regards to my Ralphie, whether a change of diet assisted in a physical change in the shape of his head, I guess I won't really know. What I do know is that is I changed his diet at an early stage of his life and his head now seems to be more streamlined than it appeared to be developing as.