Misinformation re: Blotched Bluey on site

[jasjmm27]

Anyone know of any reputable Blotchey Breeders in the USA? I have begun to "fall" for them and it seems more likely to be able to find a Blotchey rather than a Shingle (my fav) or Centralian (just really want one), so I am seeing if there are any good breeders around? I see that one at Exotic Pets, but not keen on getting that one...with all the gleaming reviews of that company I would prefer not to give them any business...

[Shadowfax]

I have seen one blotchie at the Daytona reptile show, but have not heard of any breeders.

[jasjmm27]

Wow, they're that rare in the states now? That is pretty amazing...makes the one I have seen look that much better....

[tiliqua]

Tiliqua,
Do you think that the term 'Alpine' is somewhat misleading? The colour variations described as alpine, such as your pic and my Ralphie that are found here in the Blue Mts (Central Tablelands), well this is 5-6 hours drive from the Snowy Mts! Granted it does snow here very occasionally and very lightly, but it is not an alpine area. It's not till you hit the southern tablelands (Goulburn, Cooma etc) that you're getting somewhat close to alpine country in NSW and that's like 3 or more hours away.

I think they need to come up with a better descriptor for the coloured ones. Alpine is too limited, it needs to be something broader, or else you have NSW/Tas blotchies and Vic ones.

Lisa
Yeah, to some extent the term Alpine is misleading, as the Blue Mountains and Central Tablelands are not so much alpine but more montane and highland (though it's really plateaux/tableland!).

However, the highest parts of the Blue Mountains & Central Tablelands have essentially the same &/or similar reptile species make-up & composition as the alpine areas to the south.
i.e the skinks (Water, L. entrecasteauxii, Blotchy), copperheads and white-lipped snakes, etc.

Highland or montane are good alternatives to the term 'Alpine' Blotchy, as they are more inclusive.

No name is perfect though, as both forms are generally restricted to the more mountainous terrain, except in the far south where they are coastal as well.

[tiliqua]

Dr Ashley Edwards an authority on blotchies from University of Tasmania makes no distinction.

She (I believe Ashley is a she) says they are all T Nigrolutea. No Alpine/Lowland or whatever.
_________________
Geoff.

Whilst there's no argument about them both being T. nigrolutea, as much as I like Ashley's work (I believe she is quite beautiful as well!) I'd have to disagree with her about this.

I think that the distinction that is made between the two forms of this species is valid to the point of them being distinct sub-species!

Apart from the colour and pattern differences, there are morphological differences (lowlands are a smaller race) and have reproductive differences as well (lowlands have more young).

Jenkins and Bartell (1980) wrote:

there appear to be two colour races present on the Southern Highlands; a lowlands form which has yellow blotches, and a montane variety which has pink blotches.
...the smaller race with the yellow blotches appears to be confined to mountains and their foothills in the eastern sector (of the high country of se. Aust.)...whereas the larger variety is truly alpine.

I agree that they should at least be separate races.

Since only the "big black ones" are found in truly alpine areas and never the "little brown ones", it is arguably a good term to use.
However, I reckon that Mountain or Highland Blotched Blue-tongue are better terms to use to describe this form.

[tiliqua]

So what did everyone think about my proposed changes to the species profile on this site???

[Leigh]

To be honest Tiliqua,you comment on how other well respected peoples studies are inacurate,but at the time they wrote it, they were on about thier own work,so based on that they're right, you raise good points, but how can we say whats right and wrong if we have,
a/ never studied the species in the field
b/rely on Aussie and written information
c/ human intervention over time changing some facts

Why dont you get your findings published, for people to read and make up thier own minds.

expecting everyone to take your research as the be all and end all of Blotchies, is a bit much, I'm not trying to do you down in any way mate, but can you see my point.

[tiliqua]

Fair enough comments mate, except for the bit about the "be all and end all"! I never said that my research was the final word re: Blotchies, on the contrary I've just scratched the surface. We still have so much more to learn about nigrolutea.
I've merely tried to correct what are (in my opinion), inaccuracies in the species profile section of this site based in my experience/knowledge. I've also asked for input and feedback about my proposed changes to the information given on this site from fellas and sheilas here that are experienced and interested enough to contribute. It's all open to discussion and I've made that quite clear I think.

As to me publishing my findings, well that's not a bad idea (frustrated writer!) except that much of what I'm putting forward here has already been written about. That's why I've quoted Australian texts that are not so readily available overseas.

In a way, forums like this are modern day publishing and should be open to peer review when it comes to the 'published' content.
I'm trying to have what I know to be misinformed and inaccurate information changed (by group consensus) in the species profile section of this site.
Zach has made some changes already (which is great ), as he saw that the points were valid, as they were supported by my fellow aussies.


So c'mon guys, at least pay me point 3 about bluey's being banded, not striped!
This should surely be changed.?

3) What is written-

...they consist of mainly one solid color (instead of stripes).
No stripes—body is assorted with multitudinous irregular shaped "blotches".

Correction -

No Tiliqua sp. have stripes as such and are more correctly called bands.
I know I'm being pedantic here but it's a valid point.

Fatal S agreed about the blotches becoming bands on the tail (point 4) though still mistakenly referred to them as 'stripes'...

I see what's meant by the tail turning into stripes.

If the terms aren't correct in the information section of the site then beginners and members start to use the wrong terms, as we can see here.



Anyway, maybe this is not the time or the place to discuss this and perhaps my intensity is misplaced and unwelcome here but it seemed like the right place and a good idea at the time . I don't know where else to go to now...?
Perhaps I should seek out the bright and beautiful Ashley for an in depth chat about nigrolutea.

Thanks to all those that contributed to the discussion with pics and comments


Cheers

[Scotts1au]

Hi Tiliqua

Yep bands ie. Stephens Banded snake - refers to stripes across the animal

Stripes ie. Three striped skink - refers to lengthwise stripes.

Should the focus be on how this discussion relates to the care of the animals?

ie. if you live the US and you own a Northern can you treat it the same?

Regards

Scott

[Fatal_S]

Oops -.-' Okay, I understand the difference now. I can't promise not to call them stripes again, but I'll try, especially in these kind of discussions. Tiliqua, no leaving. I'm loving this thread and getting all the new information. I mean look, now I know that nigrolutea have Bands on their tails. I also memorized how to spell nigrolutea ^.^

When you say no BTS have Stripes, does this mean that when they have dark lines between scales on their backs, these are not considered stripes? Ex:

IMO, I would say this eastern has Stripes. Or do stripes need to be more than jut these thin, broken lines?

As I'm typing this, I'm realizing that 'Stripes' is a very weird word.

[Geoff Gates]

So what did everyone think about my proposed changes to the species profile on this site???

Tiliqua,

I don't have an issue with any of your proposed changes. (though I must admit you're splitting hairs on some wordings).


As a side issue I'm not sure what your reference to white-lipped snakes was about. I definitely know that they are found in coastal areas as well.

Here's an image I took at Wilson's Promontory lighthouse steps.

[Scotts1au]

OK Tiliqua, I sat down and had a qick look, I think that a little tweek is really all that is required. Zach does a great job.

The Blotched:

This is a blue tongue species that inhabits a variety of habitats across cool temperate parts of South Eastern Australia from coastal heath and woodlands to upland forests. Their natural range is confined to lower eastern mainland Australia and Tasmania. In many areas they are regular visitors to suburban back yards. Outside of Australia, “Blotchies” (as they are often known) are one of the rarer breeds in captivity. In the US, the Blotched used to be quite common with reptile hobbyists years ago, but have since relinquished in the pet trade.
Blotchies are unique among blue tongues in that instead of colored or dark bands across the body, patterns are displayed as 'blotches' scattered up and down their back normally set against a black outline which is often extensive. Some forms have fat tails which are thick all the way down until abruptly coming to a point. They reach lengths of up to 18 inches or so, usually give birth to consistently 8-10 offspring,. There are two popular named 'phases' of blotched; alpine and lowland. These phases are not diverse enough to be considered subspecies, but are usually quite distinctive. The top three photographs demonstrate the 'alpine phase', and the fifth displaying a 'lowland'. Usually, the main difference is color. The alpine's are usually characterized as being much darker due to extensive black marking with blotch colors such as oranges and even pinks, while the lowlands usually consist of darker shades of browns, grays, pinks and other darker markings. The alpines also often have an overall yellow tinged shade and checkered forelegs. Sometimes the alpines are referred to as 'highlands'.

Note to other listers: with some of the other species attributes such as temperament get a mention - blotchies are very compliant in captivity, easy to maintain and not fussed on their food. They genuinely seem to recognise people and situations eg. Feeding time, unlike Easterns which in my opinion tend to tolerate people but are always a bit more skiddish.

btw Geoff I'll upload some photos of White Lipped's that I had as a kid to my album. I don't think much of their feeding habits though as I could never get them to eat anything but skinks -they shunned pinkies. Good thing they are happy with just skink tails.

Scott

[Leigh]

TiliquaIam in no position to be doughting or backing up any info you've supplied and I do agree that facts should be correct, Its just that not everyone who is on this site is as knowlegeable as they'd like to be or as passionate as some,I do agree that bands go around and stripes go length ways .

I was slightly concerned it was heading for Auss vs USA round2

Those that know what I mean,know what I mean, you know what I mean

[MartinsPerson]

Perhaps it would be beneficial to define bands and stripes on the species profile. This site is primarily directed at beginners, and often people with no reptile experience. To refer to an animal as "banded" is using trade lingo, and might be over an amateur's head. I think this matter would be cleared up with a simple definition.

[Lisa]

I think the description (and also map distribution) given in the Grant Turner series 'Keeping Blue Tongue Lizards' is pretty good. It also references Shea, Weigal, etc. I've got the 2001 edition.

Bands v stripes. Hm, I'm a simpleton and certainly no herp specialist or big word specialist either and so (slap me if you must!) but I kind of see them meaning the same thing. Some people call them bands, some people call them stripes.

But! But! But! If in herpetological terms they are different (like in regard to other reptiles) then for sure, apply the correct term to blotchies as well. I know nuthink about other reptiles, and if I'm honest, not alot about bluetongues either. If it is trade lingo, then whoever writes the description please make sure the right term is used so I can at least sound like an expert in superior company!

I have one other observation to make in regards to the visual differences between the alpines and lowlands; on the alpines the blotch splotches seem much more random. No pattern, sizes differ, some join up and make lines.

However in most of the lowlands I've ever seen, the blotches almost always seem more symetrical. Almost as though they are a pattern.

Has anyone else ever noticed this? (Don't worry, I'm used to the answer 'No, it's just you'. )

Also, I'm not a big one of putting 'personality' traits into species descriptors. Things such as 'eats anything', 'can be skittish', 'handles well' etc because that is unique to the individual animal regardless of type. Like most species, including human, I'd imagine.

For example, Scott says his easterns tolerate people but are a bit more skittish. My eastern is much more tolerant than my blotch who can be skittish. And my blotch is a total pig, yet I know of others that are rather picky.

Wow, way too long!

[Scotts1au]

hi Lisa

Sorry for the comments about Easterns, hope I haven't offended this is an artifact of my limited relative experience with them. The NOTE down the bottom was to the listers as such rather than to include on the site was supposed to be a question more than anything.

Other than that the text is the same length as on the existing page.

I was trying to generalise which is always dangerous but if put in the context of being a generalise guide can be useful.

At one stage I had a huge outdoor bluey cage with about 20 or so individuals , one of my favorite breeders was a female grey blotchie aptly named "Bitchie" because she would often try to take off a finger and would hiss at my sight. Very much the exception to the rule though, most followed me around like puppies.

I have no experience with "alpines". Although I have seen animals that look like them in near coastal environments (see previous posts) - although no-one seems to believe me other than my wife who gets annoyed everytime I stop the car to shoo them off the road back into the bush.

Scott

[Lisa]

hi Lisa

Sorry for the comments about Easterns, hope I haven't offended

Scott

Hey, course not!
I didn't mean to single out your comment either, I just think that 'personality' traits really depend on the individual lizard. Even other factors such as how many generations captive bred, how they are raised and interacted with, whether they are kept outdoors or indoors etc may determine their personality. Perhaps even what they're fed; live food (rousing natural predatory instincts) versus a plate of dog food and veggies may even shape their demeanour.

My blotch hates being picked up or any handling in general, but is fine when out, is the mellowest when outdoors, happy to be touched and prodded, and yes will come running for food! Just hates being held. He can be a little twitchy too when you make sudden movements near him.

My eastern, he'd make a great educational animal. Like the ones people take to schools and shopping malls. I'm convinced that most of those animals are cooled to make them more placid, but my Jubby is always like that.

I have only seen lowland blotchies a couple of times. They remind me alot in looks and size and shape of easterns (particularly their heads), whereas the alpines look like a variety all of their own. I'd imagine that there would be a fair few eastern/lowland blotch matings in the wild as their terrority overlaps, whereas most others (centralians, westerns, east coast easterns, northerns), well their territories are pretty individual to them.

I believe you when you say you've seen an alpine! Last year or the year before I found one in my garage and I'm minimum 30k's below the lowest point they are accepted to be found here in the mts. Could've been an escaped pet, but hey, I sighted it in the wild!

[Fatal_S]

In regards to personality, I laugh every time people say silver tanimbars tend to be the most 'unfriendly' or 'wild'. I love my silver tanny! He's so calm and easy to handle, no hissing or biting. My yellow tanny however tries to bite me, runs, leaps off ledges, anything to get away. My northern is a grump 99% of the time, though just huffy and would rather leave, but he's a pet store skink, which could explain it. I love my little silver buddy ^.^

[Blotch]

Well, 2 of my Easterns Are *MeStoopid, and one of my Blotchies is very narky. In General, I'd say Easterns and blotchies are quite calm and easy to handle, however easterns do seem to dislike being held more than blotchies.

Oh and another thing. The "Some forms have fat tails which are thick all the way down until abruptly coming to a point." comment is only really correct if the animal has had tail trauma. You will not find a blotchie that has not been attacked with a tail that abruptly comes to a point. Saying that - apart from the stumpy or bobtail all Aussie blue tongues are the same.

These are thick tails that end Abruptly.



This is a Blotchies tail. (Vic Rattlehed)

[Blotch]

I have only seen lowland blotchies a couple of times. They remind me alot in looks and size and shape of easterns (particularly their heads), whereas the alpines look like a variety all of their own. I'd imagine that there would be a fair few eastern/lowland blotch matings in the wild as their terrority overlaps, whereas most others (centralians, westerns, east coast easterns, northerns), well their territories are pretty individual to them.

The hybridizing of Lowland blotchies and easterns is quite normal in the wild.