Herp Vet says never to feed skinks cat/dog food

[Richard.C]

Monitors and tiliqua are like chalk and cheese,nothing alike,monitors have extremely high preffered body temps,they also have extremely high metabolisms,feed a bluey like a monitor eats and it would explode before 7 days were up

ML,frank feeds his monitors rodents,which theres nothing wrong with,but if he is saying feed them what they eat in nature hes waaaaay off the mark

Also if u offer them a foot or more of hard pack soil like monitors like to burrow in,i bet one of my left appendages that they will never make a deep tunnel,lol

Wild and captivity are very different,whilst mimicking the wild is fine,if u did a study on what they eat there would be more nay sayers then there are with dogfood diets,lol

[ManahShepard]

No Richard, it is not. Just because you do not have any problems and nothing is seen does not mean you are not doing anything wrong. That's my two cents and I just feel everyone should question and research everything.

Not just take for granted that you or any other breeder knows what they're talking about. There have been MULTIPLE times where breeders actually do things WRONG, but because they don't see any effects from what they're doing they assume it is right and not harmful.

Basically, my comment went down to RESEARCH FOR YOURSELF.

And it is Manah. Not Manna. : /

Edit; I did not say t flip through threads, I said DO RESEARCH Richard. Which means going to multiple people who factual pieces of material and then choosing (from process of elimination) which is right TO YOU. Because, lets face it, people in the herp trade can't even agree on things.

I also think you are wrong, because if thats the case its an insult to people who right intellectual articles on these animals they study/live with for years Yes, you cannot believe everything you read, thats why you need a multiple sample pool.

So no. I don't think what I said was ignorant or wrong, thank you.

And a vet would know more than a person who breeds them because at the end of the day, if the animal gets sick where do you go? Oh yeah, THE VET. Ironic, isn't it?

No, the vet does not study a specific animal, but they do know enough (certain ones who do study exotics) to be able to help you and your sick animal. To know the medicines and the parasites to look for to be able to help you if they are sick or dying. So I would NOT cut a vet short on that.

[El Lobo]

Manah - All this research you do could you help me by giving me some of the references you use?

In your opinion would Wikipedia and Yahoo answers be a good starting point?

[Bluish]

I was hoping this thread would die a peaceful death.

ManahShepard: The reason we take our animals to the vet is because it is often our ONLY option to get the needed meds etc. Anyone with "experience" in this hobby is very cautious about which vet they take their exotics to. There are VERY few vets that are really up to speed with herps and many do more harm than good. As others have mentioned most aren't qualified or are using outdated reference material.
On many forums the word "vet" is almost a dirty word among the veteran keepers.
Sometimes the old timers are wrong about things but if several of them are saying the same thing and having great success with it perhaps the newbies should respect that. Producing multiple healthy generations of a species is proof enough that their methods work. The gold standard of husbandry. Please find someone with an equally impressive track record that disagrees with the long time keepers on this site. That would carry far more weight to me than a kitty and puppy vet.
It never ceases to amaze me when someone new to the hobby comes to a forum with no track record and 50 posts and proceeds to disrupt threads based on the opinion of a vet that may never have seen a skink in their office.

[ManahShepard]

Manah - All this research you do could you help me by giving me some of the references you use?

In your opinion would Wikipedia and Yahoo answers be a good starting point?

The fact that you said that shows how little you respect my opinion. You and I both know, that is not correct but it can also give insight to the problems other people have with their animals.

And you want some links?

http://www.gossreptiles.com/blue_tongue.htm

http://bluetongueskinks.net/care.htm

The very website I used when I found this place. There are your -links-, and go read some books on the animals done by professionals, if you're so concerned with what I had to say.

It was a general statement. Do your research and stop slamming Vets, because they ARE trained to help animals and like DOCTORS -everyone of them- has a different opinion on what could be wrong. Thats why you have to do your research, call different vets and then reach out to people on forums who also have the animal you have to see if you can come to a solution to your problem or finding out proper care.

Just because I am new to this forum and new to owning a BLUE TONGUE SKINK, does not make my opinion any less important. Just because I do not have a 50 post count on this forum, does not make what I have to say mute. Just because I am not overly respectful to some of the members who apparently have extreme experience with skinks does not mean I am wrong. But, I'm sorry I think I'll listen to a PROFESSIONAL first and the ones who do this as a hobby SECOND.

Maybe if you guys spent more time being welcoming and not demeaning when you're trying to inform people of things, people would stay. But, I think I'll stay on the bearded dragon forums - they seem more civil there.

To the OC of this post, I believe your Vet perhaps has personal feelings on cat/dog food and what/however they researched on it. And I think maybe you should get some more opinions from other herp vets before you make the decision, and do some looking up. Then make the decision on your own - but it should never be used as a staple, its still for cats and dogs.

I hope you come to the answers you seek. <3

[xxmonitorlizardxx]

I was hoping this thread would die a peaceful death.

Why?

[Kurt]

But, I think I'll stay on the bearded dragon forums

I think we'd all appreciate that.


...JUST KIDDING. No one wants you to leave.

Honestly, as a beginner to blueys (less than 2 years experience) I appreciate these types of debates. I always learn a lot from the diet threads. Personally I have never used dog food and only used cat food once (smelled awful to me and the skinks didn't seem to eat with their usual gusto so I ditched it). I've been using ground meat as a staple (chicken breast, turkey breast, low fat beef, and chicken livers) to mix with veggies. My personal (unexperienced) opinion is that it is best to provide variety so I think switching between meat, dog food, and occasional feeders (f/t mouse or dubias once every 1-2 weeks) is an 'ideal' diet. Today will be the first day that I try dog food so I'll post some pictures on how that goes I guess.

To the arguing parties, maybe some more "research" could be done? If some actual results came from this thread that'd be great for beginners like myself who are at the whim of the advice given on this forum and what we hear from vets.

[Jeff]

There is so much about this post that should be addressed, but I think this may be the most important single point:

Just because I am new to this forum and new to owning a BLUE TONGUE SKINK, does not make my opinion any less important. Just because I do not have a 50 post count on this forum, does not make what I have to say mute. Just because I am not overly respectful to some of the members who apparently have extreme experience with skinks does not mean I am wrong. But, I'm sorry I think I'll listen to a PROFESSIONAL first and the ones who do this as a hobby SECOND.


Maybe if you guys spent more time being welcoming and not demeaning when you're trying to inform people of things, people would stay. But, I think I'll stay on the bearded dragon forums - they seem more civil there.

YES! It actually DOES make your opinion less important, and less credible! You should NOT attack someone who has decades of experience as though you have equal credibility. That is what has been wrong over and over on this thread. You simply have not earned the right to present your opinions as though you are on equal footiing as someone who has been working with these animals for close to 30 years. That is arrogant and obnoxious.

It seems to be more and more prevalent in society that people don't feel they should be expected to EARN respect. Many people want their opinion to be respected the same as that of an expert immediately. It doesn't work that way. You need to put in the time before your opinions will carry the same weight as someone who has. Until then, you should have the humility to ask questions respectfully if you disagrree with something an expert has said, or as you suggested, stay mute.

The fact that you would blindly listen to a vet and discount the experience of someone who has worked specifically with BTS for decades only further illustrates your inexperience. Why do you think most long-time keepers/breeeders agree that a vet knowledgeable specifically with BTS, is the exception rather than the norm? It's because most have been looking for these vets for decades!

If you have found a bearded dragon forum that allows the opinions of inexperienced members be presented on equal ground to that of the opinions of experts, then that probably would be a better fit for you. I have no intention of allowing that to happen here. Over the years, this forum has seen one expert after another simply stop posting due to the attacks of one newbie after another who felt justified in ignoring the years of knowlegde and experience. Because of that, the quality of advice and answers has deteriorated. That needs to change.

ANYONE, regardless of whether they have 20 days of experience, or 20 years, is welcome here and should feel comfortable asking questions. What is NOT acceptable is someone who has had their first skink for "3 weeks" GIVING ADVICE that contradicts an expert as though it is fact. Giving the opinion is fine, but it needs to be presented as what it is; THE OPINION OF SOMEONE WHO HAS NO EXPERIENCE. Even after years of posting on this forum and others, I still note when something I post is my opinion rather than proven fact. I just don't understand why people who have been around for a month have such a hard time doing the same thing.

I respect those with more experience than myself, and would never in a million years respond to them the way I have seen on this forum lately, no matter how much I disagreed with something they said. It is time for this to stop.

[critterguy]

Hey Jeff,

Seems it got buried in this thread-do you recall what other brands of food the keeper you speak of tried against pedigree?

Thanks!
~Joseph

[Richard.C]

Mannah,no offence,but fact is doing something,eg feeding something for years with zero negative affects,that is fact,not usinguv lighting at the same time,also fact,id take that over what someones read anyday,professional or not

I know a vet here,reptile vet who breeds lizards and he also uses dogfood for large skinks,not all vets think alike,just like keepers,its all good reading stuff but end of the day,fact is doing stuff and over the long term

Our job as keepers is to hopefully avoid seeing the vet,prevention being the best cure,the female in my avatar is pushing 20 years in my care,fed soley on dogfood,never seen the vet,got her as an adult and quite possably is 30 odd years old,previos owner wasnt sure how long they had her

Im not arguing,not saying dogfood is the best way to go either,just saying im not the only one whos used it for 20 plus years with ZERO side affects,nill,nothing,with well over 100 blueys and egernia skinks,indoors without uv lighting,another supposed no no and outdoors

That is fact,you say im wrong,but results beg to differ,i could read stuff ,but i prefer to go off experience,not stuff people have read and become an over nite expert on

[Jeff]

Hey Jeff,

Seems it got buried in this thread-do you recall what other brands of food the keeper you speak of tried against pedigree?

Thanks!
~Joseph

Sorry Joseph. No I didn't write down brand names etc. There were a couple "top of the line" brands, a couple "garbage" brands, AND various other things tried such as plain meat with vegetables etc. While dog food is the easiest, it also produced the best results. This has been shown repeatedly by more than one controlled test. Contrary to popular belief, long-time Tiliqua keepers breeders do not simply refuse to try new things, many try new things all the time. Every "vet suggested" method has been tested in real world conditions. Some work, and some don't. I just wish people would listen to the people who have taken the time to actually test the "theories"!

[bella3]

Maybe if you guys spent more time being welcoming and not demeaning when you're trying to inform people of things, people would stay. But, I think I'll stay on the bearded dragon forums - they seem more civil there.

I'm sorry, I feel like I need to say something about this. I believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, if you feel it is right to trust the vet then fine, but I find everyone on this forum to be welcoming and helpful. You stated your opinion here, and many people who have been keeping/breeding skinks for years have stated theirs, so just because the two opinions aren't the same is NOT to say that people aren't being welcome. Their opinions are not the same as yours, it doesn't that they are being unwelcome because there is a difference in opinion.

People are just trying to give you their thoughts and advice, so if you don't agree that's fine, but please try not to be labeling people here. Sorry if that seemed harsh, just what I feel needed to be said.

[critterguy]

Wonder what it is about Purina in particular vs the other brands. Don't think anyone has an answer to that that is for sure. Do you guys ever try feeding the weight management stuff or just stick to the regular stuff?

I've fed a variety of dog and cat foods as the base diet, and have what appear to be two healthy skinks. I don't really do much in the way of greens...every so often I will stick them various veggies but it is difficult to get them to eat much of it.They do both enjoy the occasional meal of my discarded wax pepper tops (only "veggie" they actually seem to enjoy) and mealworms/supers. But the basic diet is just the food plus calcium w D3

Well, they aren't huge or anything but they look great to me. I think I'm going to try feeding Purina from now on and see what happens. But with only two animals that are already nearly full grown(ages 1 and 2) I don't think I will notice a difference. Whether or not dry food is good or not for skinks I can't say...but I used one brand(EarthBorn Holistic Vantage-not because of its supposedly quality ingredients but the fact that it came in a nice skink sized bag) almost solely for half a year for one animal-with only occasional use of canned food such as purina. I just put enough water in the dry food to turn it soggy, and then he could easily eat the kibble. No impaction issues or anything.

btw I back Jeff 100%. While even experts do disagree somewhat on some things(look at the variety of substrate veterans keep BTS on) lots of breeders are having success with this particular diet. And more than just surviving the animals thrive. Intelligent discussion and experimentation is fine-with the acknowledgement that the experimental diet is still unproven and may just as well prove bad for the animal, but denouncing and ignoring success is not.

[Bluish]

Maybe if you guys spent more time being welcoming and not demeaning when you're trying to inform people of things, people would stay. But, I think I'll stay on the bearded dragon forums - they seem more civil there.

Maybe if you didn't dismiss the work of people with 20 years experience and a few thousand posts they WOULD be more welcoming to a newbie that has just acquired their first skink.
I think the members here have been more than patient by continuing to respond to a couple of disrespectful newbies that aren't listening to what is being said to them.

[Kurt]

Hey Jeff,

Seems it got buried in this thread-do you recall what other brands of food the keeper you speak of tried against pedigree?

Thanks!
~Joseph

Sorry Joseph. No I didn't write down brand names etc. There were a couple "top of the line" brands, a couple "garbage" brands, AND various other things tried such as plain meat with vegetables etc. While dog food is the easiest, it also produced the best results. This has been shown repeatedly by more than one controlled test. Contrary to popular belief, long-time Tiliqua keepers breeders do not simply refuse to try new things, many try new things all the time. Every "vet suggested" method has been tested in real world conditions. Some work, and some don't. I just wish people would listen to the people who have taken the time to actually test the "theories"!

Jeff,

In lieu of this thread, I am going to use dog food mixed with fresh vegetables exclusively for at least the next few weeks. What brands/flavors do you avoid? I bought 2 different types last night, Pedigree Country Stew and IAMS Beef Chunks with Vegetables. Are those OK?

Also, I understand that experience has shown feeding dog food and vegetables exclusively has no negatives, but do you feel that rotating dog food and ground meats as the staple protein every couple of weeks would be equally beneficial (excluding the extra money and effort involved in using ground meats)? Or do you feel that using exclusively dog food would be better? Sorry if this is beating a dead horse but I was always under the influence that variety is healthier? Also, what are your thoughts about feeders (specifically f/t mouse and dubias)?

Thank you in advance!

[Jeff]

Carl, I think the foods you mentioned are all fine. I have nothing against any dog food, or any other diet that meets the needs of BTS (Yes, there are other ways to meet the nutritional needs of a BTS besides dog food. Just look at El Lobo's blotchies!).

I also think variety is great, as long as the "variety" is not harmful. I will just say it one more time. I am not telling anyone what they should, or shouldn't feed their skinks. I am just telling anyone who will listen, that dog food, and even lowly dog food like Pedigree works wonderfully as a base diiet for BTS. When people with no experience come on here and say differently, I will continue to tell them that they are wrong and present the scientific evidence to prove it. That is really all I can do.

[El Lobo]

Manah - All this research you do could you help me by giving me some of the references you use?

In your opinion would Wikipedia and Yahoo answers be a good starting point?

The fact that you said that shows how little you respect my opinion. You and I both know, that is not correct but it can also give insight to the problems other people have with their animals.

You're darn tootin' I have little respect for your opinion. I have not seen anything where you have a totally different opinion to almost everyone else that has been supported by even a scintilla of evidence. You made the claim on another thread that BTS don't burrow and even when presented with photographic evidence to the contrary you refused to accept any position other than your own.

And you want some links?

http://www.gossreptiles.com/blue_tongue.htm

http://bluetongueskinks.net/care.htm

I am totally underwhelmed by these links. Your ceaseless harping over research and in your words "people who right (sic) intellectual articles on these animals" appears to have been disregarded. The second link (that of this site) was written by enthusiasts, hobbyists and breeders. The first by what appears to be a commercial breeder. Given your disdain for such it is oxymoronic you would choose these as references.

The very website I used when I found this place. There are your -links-, and go read some books on the animals done by professionals, if you're so concerned with what I had to say.

I have.

I have also read dozens of papers presented at veterinary conferences, some of which I have posted in the Advanced Discussion Forum.

Jeff et al have addressed the other issues of demanding respect but offering none in return.

[Richard.C]

I forgot to comment on your meal post norm,looks great as do the customers eating it,blotchies when active can polish off that size meal with ease

Another great example a of a great diet,and zero dogfood in it,and ive actually seen a blotch feeding on a road killed roo,mind you ive seen a few eat dried dog poop,but dont teccomend that,lol

People reading this thread,theres lots of successful ways to feed your blueys,please dont get upset at some of the replies,take it in and feel free to feed with any of the ways you feel comfy with

I agree with jeff,re people writing off dogfood as a healthy diet,usually off the word of others and not based on anything factual,,isnt it better to show results that beg to differ

[El Lobo]

I have nothing against feeding dog food (apart from the smell) and it has been proven by so many experienced keepers to meet the nutritional needs of blueys. We eat very little packaged foods ourselves so that has translated to feeding the pets in the same manner. After more than thirty years of caring for Eclectus parrots and over twenty years caring for rabbits preparing them all fresh meals twice a day, knocking up a wholesome fresh meal for three Blotchies once or twice a week is no big deal. You just can't go to the supermarket or pet shop and pick up a packet or can of Eclectus food.

I don't advocate my way as the preferred for feeding blueys for anyone who doesn't feel comfortable with the extra planning that has to go into it, when the dog food and vegetable diet obviously meets their needs. I'm fairly sure if I was caring for many more skinks I would overcome the smell issue with dog food and also be cracking open cans.

For Richard - yesterday we had a visit from a juvenile Gang Gang. You know the story.....took off before I could get the camera.

[Richard.C]

I miss seeing gang gangs,beautiful birds,they are shy buggers ,unlike the yellow tail black cockies that chew up pine cones and cover my blotchie cages with the leftover cores

Its great seeing them back this season,never saw any till 3 years ago,now there more common than galahs and sulpur crested cockies