Superworms vs. Mealworms...

[Zach]

It's silkworms versus crickets, but it's using different percentages or something compared to the butterworm chart.

[Tigergenesis]

I've yet to order in bulk online - plan to start doing that soon. For now I get waxworms at petstore and can only pick up the butterworms and silkies at the monthly reptile show (when the guy shows up). So it's not as often as I'd like. Maybe once a week or every other week does Phoebe get worms.

I need to go to the show tomorrow to pick up frozen mice (even though I have the flu) and I'm hoping the worm guy is there. I'd like to pick up a small thing of butterworms and try them with Piper and again with Phoebe.

[Zach]

Tiger, do you know the difference on those charts....on the one it lists butterworms as fifty something in calcium, but the othere just .08....

I think the butterworms are listed as (ml/100 grs), what's the other?

[Tigergenesis]

I'm trying to figure it out. I just did a search and copied all the insect nutritional analysis I could and am trying to see if I can figure it out and put together a comprehensive chart with similiar measurements.

[Jenn]

Do you think it is okay to give them silk worms with every or every other meal?

[Tigergenesis]

I don't see why not. They make an excellent staple food item.

[Jenn]

They would count as some of my meat right? If I use them on a regular basis, should I cut back on some of my other meats?

[Zach]

I'm trying to figure it out. I just did a search and copied all the insect nutritional analysis I could and am trying to see if I can figure it out and put together a comprehensive chart with similiar measurements.

Sounds awesome.

[Tigergenesis]

They would count as some of my meat right? If I use them on a regular basis, should I cut back on some of my other meats?

Yep - I'd count it as the meat portion of the diet.

[Jenn]

Thanks!!!

[Tigergenesis]

Okay, I did a search for nutritional analysis the best I could on the Internet. Different sites provide information on different nutritional aspects, and I had difficulty finding more than one source for some of the feeders. I made note of everything I found, and although sometimes the results were slightly different (could be due to prey size, etc) the results were basically the same. I was unable to find Ca:P ratios for some. I also jotted down some tidbits about some of the feeders listed. I did notice that the information I have in the food chart for Silkworms has been changed/updated on the site I got it from (new info noted below).

I took all that and compiled a list. I do not profess to be any type of expert on this - I solely did a search on the Internet and arranged my findings to share. So here goes:


FEEDER MOISTURE % ASH % FAT% PROTEIN% Ca:P Notes
Crickets 69.07 9.90 22.70 11.40 1:9.75
Mealworms 61.00 1.00 14.00 20.00 1:25
Waxworms 61.73 1.02 22.19 15.50 1:7 Softbodied; can store in fridge; no feeding required
Superworms 59.37 1.20 17.89 17.41 1:18
Butterworms 58.54 1.04 5.21 16.20 2x the calcium of any other feeder worm; soft bodied; store in fridge; no feeding required
Nightcrawlers 85.00 1.00 2.00 10.00 Can store in fridge; no feeding required
Silkworms ? 7.4 10.6 63.8 1:2.35 Softbodied; store at room temp; will only eat silkworm chow or mulberry leaves

**************************************************
FROM BEST TO WORST

FAT
Nightcrawler
Butterworm
Silkworms
Mealworm
Superworm
Waxworm
Crickets

PROTEIN
Silkworms
Mealworm
Superworm
Butterworm
Waxworm
Crickets
Nightcrawler

Ca:P
Silkworms
Mealworm
Waxworm
Crickets
Mealworm
* Keep in mind unable to find ratio for Butterworms, but has more calcium than all


Now - do with it what you want. I just knew I'd find this helpful to have as much of this information compiled together as possible, and I thought I'd share.

And of course - variety in our blueys diet is paramount. So when talking about the meat portion of their diet mix it up. Insects are not required, and they are not the only source for meat.

With the information above, I think it might be helpful to know what feeders might be best for herps at different times in their lives (for instance if underweight, a breeding female, calcium deficiency, growing baby, adult, etc).

So that's it - I'm spent. I think I overdid it today so I'll call it a night. I thought I was getting better (got the flu), but not feeling so great right now.

[Trogdor]

That is cool info, thanks Tiger!

[Trogdor]

Nobody poke fun at me... But I have had herps for a long time... And I still have no idea what the Ca:P ratio is and means.. ok, I know what it stands for, but how do you read it? What is a good Ca:P ratio?

[Tigergenesis]

The Ca:P represents the ratio of calcium to phosphorus. To provide a balanced diet, the Ca:P ratio must be taken into account, as high levels of phosphorus can block calcium conversion. Most live feeders are high in phosphorus, so the best way to level the playing field is to offer veggies with high Ca:P ratios and by dusting insects with calcium. If you continually offer foods that are have more phosphorus than calcium then you could have problems later on. Ideally, you want the "Ca" to be higher than the "P" or as close to 1:1. That's not always possible, but you can make adjustments in the other ingredients in a meal/diet to compensate. You'll find the Ca:P listed for most foods on the food chart.

That and some other important information is found at the bottom of the food chart for reference.

[Trogdor]

Soo collard greens are EXCELLENT at 14:5, while chicken on the other hand is not so great at 1:16... Did I understand you right or do I have it backwards?


OR

Do you usually just want a nice even ratio of 1:1?? Unless you have maybe a gravid female, then ofcourse you want more calcium eh?

[Tigergenesis]

It seems most of the meats are going to be higher in phosporous than calcium. While you do want to look at the individual ratio for a food item remember you balance it all out by the other types of foods you put with the meal, etc. You want the overall to be as close to the 1:1 as possible - but don't go overboard and drive yourself crazy trying to do so and try to make it an exact science.

You don't want an overabundance of phosphorous, but too much calcium can be bad as well. That's why you shoot for a balance.

[Steve]

Incorrect Tiger, not all species require a 1:1 ratio, many require a diet much heavier in calcium.



And here's something interesting I found while searching for actual data to back up the above statement with examples

The calcium to phosphorus ratio in bone is about 2.5:1, while the ideal dietary phosphorus / calcium
ratio is estimated to be about 1:1. Many dietary factors reduce calcium uptake, such as foods high
in oxalic acid (spinach, rhubarb, chocolate), which can interfere with calcium absorption by forming
insoluble salts in the gut. Phytic acid, or phytates found in whole grain products, foods rich in fiber,
excess caffeine from coffee, colas, tea..., as well as certain medications may all reduce the absorption
of calcium and other minerals, or leach calcium from bone. Normal intake of protein, fats, and acidic
foods help calcium absorption, however high levels of these same sources increase calcium loss.

http://www.acu-cell.com/acn.html

[Zach]

I think she said Ideally you want foods that have a higher calcium %.

[Tigergenesis]

Incorrect Tiger, not all species require a 1:1 ratio, many require a diet much heavier in calcium.

I said that

Ideally, you want the "Ca" to be higher than the "P" or as close to 1:1.

Meaning at least 1:1.

And here's something interesting I found while searching for actual data to back up the above statement with examples

The calcium to phosphorus ratio in bone is about 2.5:1, while the ideal dietary phosphorus / calcium
ratio is estimated to be about 1:1. Many dietary factors reduce calcium uptake, such as foods high
in oxalic acid (spinach, rhubarb, chocolate), which can interfere with calcium absorption by forming
insoluble salts in the gut.

I also noted that information at the end of one of the food charts, but just to re-emphasize:

Oxalic acid is just as dangerous as phosphorus because it binds calcium. In other words, it removes calcium from other foods where it would otherwise be

In the food chart, those foods known to be high in oxalic acid (as well as those with known low and moderate oxalic acid levels) have been noted. Spinach, rhubarb, pears and romaine lettuce are just a few with high oxalate levels.

Also on the chart I reference goitrogens.

Goitrogens are foods which suppress thyroid function. Goitrogens can induce hypothyroidism and depress thyroidal function. Goitrogens work by interfering with the thyroidal uptake of iodine. Iodine restriction will cause the thyroid to increase in size in an effort to filter more blood to get more iodine

Examples of these foods (this is only some of them) are: cauliflower and kale.

One day I hope to redo the charts. I want to include more foods, more nutritional information, insects/worms, etc. If anyone has any suggestions feel free to PM me. Don't know when I'll get around to doing it....it's on my To Do List.

[Steve]

Sigh..... the things we do for our herps.


Tiger just so you know, I'm working on printing a reptile magazine sometime in the future. When you feel your chart is a finished product, please contact me as I'd like to include it for publication.