Can you cross breed BTS's?

[Richard.C]

im sure everyone would like to see new bluetongue species,but hybridising them doesnt make new species,just mutts,i dont see why anyone would want to hybridise perfectly good looking species anyways,and no offence blotch,thats the thing that erks me the most about the whole hybridise thing,MONEY,when u think about money thats when u forget that the animal is what u keep them for,not what u can make off them,even though over here u wouldnt get much for them,but i wont crucify anyone who does it,just dont see the posatives for doing it,why mess with perfection,just my 2 cents

[Fatal_S]

2BTS's : Morphs are indeed quite a sight to see, but there is no need to cross-breed to do this. Many breeders here have found neat 'morph' traits in their blueys and just bred it through while staying inside the species. Take for example the 'white' shingles currently being worked on out in Australia, or the silver/yellow tanimbars for sale by Andrew or Ray. The great thing about blueys is that they are so varied. The variety is possibly the best reason not to hybridize. The fact is, while you may be responsible enough to keep track of your blueys and find out if it's a pure species or not, most people aren't. The hybrids will continue to be bred and eventually, as Zach said, all blueys will look alike.

I'm generally against hybrids for sub-species like this. However, I also like the idea of seeing what would come about. I'll probably never do it, but for anyone who does I'd think the best option would be to not sell them. Keep it for intrests sake, but don't let it out into the general (ignorant) population. Hybrids probably make just as good a pet as any other bluey, but if hybridizing becomes too popular we will inevitably loose our favorite skinks. If anyone does cross-breed skinks, I'd hope they'd keep them.

Oh, and you mention an all-yellow BTS, there's already ones out there. There are huge amounts of gorgeous, unique skinks out there, they may just take more work to find. Also, leapord gecko's with neat patterns are still leapord geckos. It's not cross-breeding species, it's breeding for specific traits, just like with bearded dragons. And yes, the morphs may look neat, but think about how often we now see true leapord geckos or beardies. Almost all have been in some way altered. This is exatly what BTS.net is trying to fight against. While most people here enjoy the morphs like Silver Tannies, we all love the pure species too much to put them at risk.

Blotch : I was following your arguments(for the most part) up until the point you actually talked about killing baby skinks! You seem to understand the hybridizing arguments pretty well from both sides, but if at any point you'd even think that the people here would kill off their babies just because of a hybridizing mistake, you obviously missed something. And why complain about DT? We don't know why it happened, or how DT felt, or exactly what steps were taken. Maybe she didn't know, or maybe it just happened. The reason she's not being "crucified" while you are is that she's not trying to do it, and she's not supporting it. And for those complaining about Edward's short answers, it's just the Edward way. Eventually you just get used to the people on here and how they'll respond. It's great of you to respond and give your opinions, but be nice to other people, and for God's sake don't talk about killing off baby blueys!

[LittleFoot]

but you all would not like to see some new species? What about the topic on selective breeding? I think it would be cool to get an all yellow BTS...don't you?

Just my two cents on this.....In the US, breeding for a new species is not a new species....we do not have the genetic diversity here for a new species, it will eventually be crossing-breeding and this can and would be disatrous. I know it probably isn't the best comparison, but look what is happening to the Bernese Mountain Dog in the US, it is such a cross-bred animal here that the puppies are being born with some pretty serious physical ailments. People weren't importing these dogs from Europe where they have a huge supply (and where they are native) that is corrupted the gene pool in the US. That is why imported puppies go upwards towards $2000 and non-imports are $500.

Hopefully that made sense, I am not really for breeding for a new species (in any species) Just like a malt-a-poo or a coc.k-a-poo or a TB/cross, they are still considered 'mutts' and not purebreds since you cannot guarentee the results every time.

EDIT: coker/spaniel and poodle cross = a cocka poo

[Richard.C]

just out of curiosity,why would u want to hybridise your bluies,ive never heard a good reason thats all,usually its to have an odd ball animal to make more money,so what r the benifits to crossing them,ive unintentionally crossed an alpine with a lowlands blotch,when housed indoors,but there pretty much the same thing,but i dont want to do that as i like them the way they are,so keep the seperated these days,and ive kept the babies,which are adult size now,people just stated they dont like hybridising,nothing wrong with that,others want to ,each to there own,if u want a different looking blurtongue,why not just get a different species,and why not breed the ones u have,with there own species,and it doesnt matter that they r becoming scarce in the states,im in australia where they r all common,and i still like the purity side,hope all that jargon makes sense,an interesting thread,and remember we are all bluetongue enthusists,every ones entitled to an opinion,wether right or wrong,controversial or not,its good to see some passion

[Richard.C]

and in edwards defence,he answered the original questions to a tee,can they be crossed:yes,should they be:no
i dont want to take sides but that was my answer exactly,he didnt say dont,he said they shouldnt,which i tend to agree with,anyone can do what they want,each to there own,i wouldnt think any different of anyone doing the hybridising thing,or im not saying my beliefs cause most people think that,forums are for opinions,end of the day its up to the individual to decide what they think,but if it aint broke why fix it,lol

[2BTS's]

Just to make sure everyone here understands, I don't plan on breeding two different species because I see it could cause some problems. I did not know. So do you all not like selective breeding? I love all the Blueys that are available now, but It would be cool. It would not cause any problems, would it? That would just be breeding in the same species.

[Zach]

Zach - I was banned due to that. It was because people were smashing me over something that i was interested in, when they had no right. Anything i was attempting did not affect you guys and therefore didn't warrent the attacks. you banned me for defending myself. Also, yes - like the other thread that I asked you if you would like to dance - Here we go again.

I think people may need to read my original Post rather than picking out parts that suit them. I clearly stated that it does in fact pollute the CB gene pool that you guys have over there, also the fact that i neither agree nor disagree with hybridizing. I simply don't care what you guys do with your blueys other than physically harming them. I couldn't care if you have purelines or not, it's just not relavent to me or Australia.
In regards to the hybrids that are baron - i'll find the literature for you. I did infact read it, so once I find it - you will have a copy. i promise you this.

Now in regards to Edwards comment - well it doesn't require a response cuz it was lame, but i'll humour you. That comment was simply twisted to suit your own gain. It was YOUR logic edward - not mine. I live in Australia, I'm native to this country - my ancestors weren't but I am. I have blueys all around - how cool is that!!! Unfortunately for you, you don't, I feel for you i really do. Maybe you should get a corn snake or something? - oh - and in defence of deftones - as i stated - One and 2 word answers don't help anyone Edward, He obviously doesn't have the experience you or i do, hence why he made that call - cuz those closed off 2 word answers don't help anyone. If you pay attention to how Other people help out on this board, you'll notice that they type a few more words and actually explain their views. You should try it, never know, you may like it!

I'm backing out of this - cuz i feel it getting nasty. Fact is no matter what Zach, Edward, DragonTears or I think - Each individual will make their own choice in the end. You can Advise, but this holier than thou crap needs to stop. Dragontears is guilty of this exact thing, i'm not - I haven't done it - I'm interested, i've tried, and i've abandoned it, but does she get chewed out? Well I haven't seen that happen, and I haven't seen anyone bring that up since she mentioned it earlier in this thread. You guys need to relax, people are OBVIOUSLY interested in this topic, so Put your views forward, but you can't do much more than that - those that disagree will have to agree to do so.

We're not kids are we?

I don't think it's getting nasty at all! We're all simply rigorously defending our opinions as longstanding BTS owners...from different continents which is a big reason.

And no, I never banned you for your opinions, or defending your opinions. There was much more involved; I think it was mainly bad language that you insisted was not bad language.... Water under the bridge; I'm glad you're here. You're pro-hybrid, and it's interesting to have arguments from that side.

And what's this about Dragontears??? I have no clue what you're trying to say....she's not guilty of anything. I suppose she forgot to mention that the university she worked at owned that pair of blueys, and GAVE them to her. The female then gave birth because the male and female had been housed together for who knows how long. She simply gave away the babies having no idea they were hybrids....this was long before she even found this site, or perhaps before it even existed. Don't jump to conclusions about people.

Anyway, this is good debate, a tired topic granted, but a good one.

[2BTS's]

I had no Idea people thought hybrids were bad! lol This is the first all BTS forum so it is nice to here everyones opinions.

[Zach]

Oh, and you mention an all-yellow BTS, there's already ones out there. There are huge amounts of gorgeous, unique skinks out there, they may just take more work to find. Also, leapord gecko's with neat patterns are still leapord geckos. It's not cross-breeding species, it's breeding for specific traits, just like with bearded dragons. And yes, the morphs may look neat, but think about how often we now see true leapord geckos or beardies. Almost all have been in some way altered. This is exatly what BTS.net is trying to fight against. While most people here enjoy the morphs like Silver Tannies, we all love the pure species too much to put them at risk.

There's nearly every color of the rainbow out there that is completely natural. And actually, I wouldn't even call the Silver Tanimbar a morph. It's naturally occurring in the wild that way (and often occurs due to age), although some people would still call that a morph. And you are correct in the bold statement as well -- beardies and leo geckos (in my opinion) have gotten so out of control with colors and size abnormalities.....I hate it -- not to mention the insane naming game! A fiery futle butterball bazooka bob morph? Good God.....and the reason? To stake your name on an animal YOU invented and to command a nice high price tag. I'm not so much against selective breeding however within a species particularly.

Here is my yellow Merauke. 100% natural as can be. And I'm proud of that. No man invented this skink through cross-breeding or morphing. This is how it can be seen in nature; likely a tiny area somewhere in some jungle in Indonesia...producing these pure yellow BTS!

[2BTS's]

What are the prices on them? And with Leopard Geckos, it actually it is alot of fun. I have a breeding pair and I love them. SHCT,SHTCT, Blizzards, Blazzing Blizzards, Diablo Blanco, Tremper Albino..lol just few. I bet if BTS's did not take so long to mature it would be done with them... I think after all the opinion I am going to have to go with the opinion that states....we don't need any morphs because there are already enough different breeds available! I still think it would be cool to have an all Blue BTS lol.

[Zach]

Just to make sure everyone here understands, I don't plan on breeding two different species because I see it could cause some problems. I did not know. So do you all not like selective breeding? I love all the Blueys that are available now, but It would be cool. It would not cause any problems, would it? That would just be breeding in the same species.

I don't believe it would cause problems. An example is a breeder on here named AndrewSeike -- I'll PM him about this thread, as he relishes these types of conversations. He acquired some unusual Northerns that were quite orange back in the day. Throughout the years, he has bred them creating stunningly beautiful orange Northerns. But they aren't freaks; he isn't going for a skink with no stripes or something like that; they're still easily identifiable as 100% Northerns. Another example is the "carmel" variety. They're simply nicknamed that (not a morph) because they lack black on their bodies. The name is simply a way of telling them apart during a conversation. They weren't intensely inbred for the purposes of money or putting your name on it. Andrew loves the BTS species more than the average BTS seller. I support people who breed and appreciate with a passion, and that's what he does, and that's what I do. One last example would be my yellow BTS. Boy, I'd love to find another yellow so I could breed them! Would that be considered selective breeding? Maybe...maybe not.

But thanks for asking the question on here, and glad you are enjoying the input. There are some amazingly unscrupulous sellers out there -- Andrew and Ray can tell you about one in particular who was excited to get ANY different colored BTS to mate to his stock...

And a blue BTS? There is what's known as a "blue phase" Centralian scene in the wild. They can get quite blue. But for me, the blue tongue is enough.

[Dragontears]

ok first off - you're guilty of exactly what you are arguing against - no offence - that's hypocritical. If you were that serious about your argument - you would never have let the 2 breed. and if by chance you couldn't help the breeding - you shouldn't have sold or gotten rid of the babies. - Why didn't you destroy them?

In regards to you ignoring my comment on nature knows best - using edward logic - then all US blueys should be destroyed if not sent back to Oz. they are not a native American species - therefore to stop people from doing exactly what you did - destroy them all.

It's not a nice thought huh?

I see your point in the whole cb gene pool - if you think i don't, go re-read my initial post - you'll see I'm actually covering both sides. You guys Cannot TELL anyone what they should or shouldn't do. You can advise against it - which is fine - but if you are going to do that - you need to be fair and allow people to make their own choice and not crucify them for making a choice that may be different to that in which you would've made.

I haven't read the rest of this thread yet, so if anything I'm saying has already been said, I apologize. I'm just going to comment on your statements directed at me and then I'm backing out of this debate. I have not taken offense at what you said and I hope you havent taken offense at anything I've said. Basically, I've said what I've wanted to and don't see a point in repeating myself.

I'm assuming your statement about destroying the blueys is just a facetious remark to help back your point. That said, I'm not going to argue it. I know you like blueys and don't really think that the blueys in the states should be destroyed...nor do you think that your pet (no longer in nature) blueys should be destroyed.

I guess I should clarify some points of my statement... My breeding hybrids was an accident as is most people that breed hybrids in the USA. I acquired 3 blueys that were all housed together and I didn't know anything about them. Since they had been housed together for a few years, I kept them together, not thinking anything about it. I didn't even know gender much less species. When the female gave birth to babies I gave them to friends, again, not thinking much about it. The next year the male tried to breed the female again so I found this site to determine what kind of blueys I had since I had run out of friends to give them to and wanted to be able to tell people I sold them to what kind they were. I was informed that I had two species and that hybridizing blueys was frowned on. The female did not get impregnated that second year and I separated the three blueys into separate enclosures. I haven't cross-bred them since. My POINT of my scenario in the previous post was not that I had bred hybrids, but was that I tried to keep track of all my babies and still lost two of them to who knows where. That is how hybrids get into the population...by inexperienced owners who don't know any better.

I don't appreciate being called a hypocrite. I was inexperienced and uneducated. Once I determined that I didn't agree with hybridizing blueys, I didn't do it anymore and took steps to insure that it wouldn't happen accidentally again. I would only be a hypocrite if I didn't like hybrids but still kept my gigas and IJ housed together and sold off their babies.

As for what we can and cannot tell people...this is a free country. We could tell people to go blow spit bubbles at a sperm whale if we wanted to....it doesn't mean they have to do it. The hybrid thing is just a touchy subject that gets blown out of proportion. We try to say things in a nice, advising manor, but it is hard to get jokes, sarcasm and sterness without meaness across by typing. I dont' think anyone intends to crucify anyone else...it just comes across the wrong way when typed in black and white.

I think your first post was well thought out and well written. I'm not attacking that at all and in some regards, I agree with it. However, I think the fact that you keep repeating yourself and talking in circles is what will eventually lead to a shouting match between you and some of the mods. You've made your point, you've clarified your point, you've defended your point and unless others specifically bring your points up again, you may consider letting things ride out now. You just started posting again...it'd be a shame to get on a bad note so soon and have you leave again. We like you and the other old members and hope you stick around.

If you have any other comments to direct at me, please don't hesitate to PM me, but as I said, I'm not posting on this thread anymore.

[AndrewSeike]

Hey Everyone,

Thanks Zach for keeping my name alive. I'm glad to read this interesting thread.

I think everything that can be said has been said. I do believe my paranoia of keeping bloodlines pure is rooted in our lack of diversity here in the US. I also think all the sides have been covered and commend those who have hyrids for advertising them so.

Siebrens is a terrfic example of a owner who has crossed IJ and Northerns and advertises them as so. I give major props for that kind of honesty.

It's a wonder why people hybridize things in general when so many in the US end up lying about it at the end. But some species such as the Ball Python and Blood Python hybrids are hard to lie about and I'm sure there must be people out there who are intersted keeping them.

Zach also has it right. I am not calling the caramels and oranges morphs. They have these "names" just to state they are a bit different. They are still T.S.I. Just really nice examples of them, but nothing more. I really dislike how so many morphs exist. I really think the majority don't even buy into it anyways. If the animal is really different and I mean REALLY different then - fine. But there are some idiots at the show calling their BCI - a tiger stripped, hypo melanistic clown when it's really just a light, reduced pattern (but not that reduced) Boa.

It is annoying but I'm sure a lot of people don't buy into these superfluous designations.

Sorry - here I go deviating from the topic.

Thanks Zach for saying positive things about me.

Best regards,

Andrew

[KyleWeiss]

Arguing of principles in this case is pointless.

I don't want to lose what Australian species we have here, they're very special.

Say a majority of people liked dabbling in breeding. We'd end up with skinks that all looked the same, and if people really went far, "morphs," that like breeds of dogs, would inevitably be seriously effected by inbreeding health problems for the sake of beauty.

Where human ego starts and the need to do something with their oversized brains ends up doing harm to the animal ends.

So the problem isn't cross breeding once, it's the work of those resisting crossbreeding, due to the fact it's one case where the 'slippery slope' will apply. Those people know it won't stop there. "Morphs," and the cash-coveted new designer style will soon follow, and all the greed and attitude that follow such projects.

The future is, as blueys get more popular, there will be two schools of thought. Perhaps even a forum outside this one where that kind of thing occurs.

Until that happens, we're the majority, we don't agree with it, with good reason. Like all good reason, someone will "know better," and a decision will have to be made.

KW

[Chase]

Zach - I was banned due to that. It was because people were smashing me over something that i was interested in, when they had no right.

Actually I believe you were banned for swearing. Although your argument does sound alot better if you were banned for having a differing opinion.

[KyleWeiss]

Yeah I can't see someone being banned for just having a strong counter-opinion. Unless it was being forced in some really inappropriate way.

KW

[Richard.C]

so is everyone saying if there were lots more aussie bluetongues held over there,hybridising is ok,say if blotched and easterns were common in the usa pet market,on another note,eastern cross blotcheds can and do have babies,so there isnt sterility problems there,ive seen a wild cross ,looked like a blotched but u could see the eastern banding on its sides,and yes was definatly the banding,that blotch was kept in captivity and produced a litter of 5 normal appearing blothies,also it was a juvie when originally found and the banding dissapeared as it matured,was faint to begin with,one of the babies was slightly deformed,spinal,it couldnt straighten out when born,was about to euthanase it but it slowly came good and to this day ia happy and can look after it self,u can see its back problem though but the little tyke looks after itself,hasnt grown as much as its siblings,and i dont intend selling them,unfortunatly the mother never regained condition after having them and passed 6 weeks after having them,she was quite young .i keep them outdoors seperated from my other bluies,but thats just an example or it occuring naturally,so theres every chance some people have hybrids and dont know it,more so in australia,but i dont think its the norm with them,but if a male came across a female at the right time in the wild i guess they think oh well,thats fine with me,lol,also in general they prefer different habitats,u can find them together though but easterns seem to like disturbed habitats more and blotcheds more undisturbed or close by,where i live we get both in the area ,but where u find them u generally get a high percentage of one type

[KyleWeiss]

I think the idea is there's a big difference between forcing the mating and it occurring out of our control.

Eventually a "Holy Grail," of the next new, big "phase," would come about, then everyone's hybridizing and inbreeding.

KW

[Lucifer_Spades]

I could argue both sides of this as the world of fish keeping (which I have vastly more experiance with than BTS's) in particular african cichlids have a similar problem with hybridizing and don't even get me started on blood parrots and "flower horns" but that fact remains that as long as people have kept pets they have tried to make them "unique" why else would there be zedonks and ligers or your all around basic mule. I personally can't stand the sight of some selectivly bred animals either celestial goldfish and "Twisty cats" to name a couple but the end result of everything is that everyone has their own opinions those who want to cross breed will and those who don't won't.

I agree with many though it's a very interesting topic and since I LOVE a good debate I have to add my own opinion here.

I myself will never purposly hybridize blueys because I love the naturally occuring colorations and wouldn't want to contribute to the potential gradual decline of those colorations, and I don't condone it in the US because as so many have said it's too easy to pass off babies as pure and when I buy a western or a kei I want to know that it is indeed a western or a kei however I will say that if some wants to since I can't stop them I would like to see what the results might be if some one cross bred a western and a kei it might be interesting.


So to simplify my rambleing rant I will say:

Can You: Yes
Should you:Not in the US at least
Will I: Nope
Will I hate you (a broad you not anyone in particular) If you do: Not on your life but don't expect me to take any off your hands.

[Blotch]

I'm not continuing debate - just stating something i already stated.

I'm Neither For nor against Hybridizing. I was, I tried, i abandoned it.

Richard - Zach sells his Blueys - that money comment was a half hearted dig, by no means was I serious with it.

In regards to Edwards comment - Those answers are crap! And for a moderator to think that 2 word answers help anyone especially noobs, is rediculous. my thoughts, obviously others share that thought process. *shrugs*