Update "firebelly" ( pr. patternless)

[NomadOfTheHills]

I would argue that the mere act of breeding bluey's in captivity will eventually lead to genetic selection of animals unlikely to survive in the wild. The mere act of breeding blueys in fish tanks genetically selects for animals with a propensity to breed in fish tanks. This act probably actively discriminates against animals who are stressed out by this environment which in some cases are those that would probably do better in the wild ie. more nervous, conscious of predators etc.

Bingo!



Awesome new tokay morphs, although my favorite is still the wild type.

[Bird_Brain]

My favorite Tokays are the normals. In fact, I just inquired on some. Found a posting on Kingsnake along with an S. petrii that are with in driving distance. I have always wanted a Tokay, even with their temperament.

[Fatal_S]

I love the normal, but the eyes on that blue ghost are amazing, like gargoyle geckos. The calico is neat too, I like calico cats. Couldn't care less about most of those, but I HATE that leucistic. Eww!

[NomadOfTheHills]

I love tokays as well. I am planning on picking one up at the white plains show this saturday, along with a female south florida "brooks" kingsnake.

[Bird_Brain]

Not a kingsnake fan, but the brooks are beautiful!

[NomadOfTheHills]

I wasn't a kingsnake fan till I was able to interact with the ones my friends have. They are the most voracious feeders I have ever seen! To be honest, I do not find them particularly attractive, but I love their personality.

[Zach]

Also, Zach, I highly doubt that those sunset northerns would have survived if born in the wild. Caramel, possibly, but also not likely.


P.S. This is a great conversation everyone!

Ahh, but there are portions in the tanami desert (so I'm told) where Northerns and yes, the bright orange Centralians of the red sands are found in very close range. Perhaps there are Northerns from around these areas who have adapted to the red/clay colored grounds. And remember the "carmels" often end up having black on them at some point in their lives (James Wilson's original line) and that there's hardly any difference (I don't think) between them and regulars. Just lacking a little black but still perfectly capable of camouflage.

" We do not cull our BTS when they breed. Chances are, almost all of the BTS born would not make it in the wild. The ones that do were lucky, and most likely have superior genetics. By JUST breeding any BTS, we ARE weakening them, whether they look like a wild type or not. "


All the more reason to stick to au natural as much as possible! Heh, I'm almost waiting for the day when all leo geckos just drop dead -- as you said, when's the last time we've seen an import....scary Luckily, what few Northerns we have in the states are still regular northerns as far as we can tell....keep it that way! Keep it that way! Cue Renee's angry mob smiley.

[Leigh]

I like to keep things natural and work on this thoery(more of a daydream), if there was a massive tragedy that wiped out all the Aussie/Indo/IJ..... skinks in the future, we (owners and breeders) could be asked to donate our animals for a re-population breeding programme, if said animals have been mix and matched, that would present a huge problem, the intended evolved species/sub species for each locale would be totally lost,us skink minders try to replicate nature for our skinks (poorly in most cases) but we do what we can, apart from the blaitent morph money makers, we try to keep it real.

We humans are disgusting some times, nature develops some beautifull things to look at ,but thats not good enough, we have to fork about with them to make designer toys, how long will it take to produce a LOIS VETTON Eastern,with markings "just like the real thing"

[Shadowfax]

Mmmmmm, missed those piebald pics. Yup, that's a WILD morph. Check out this one my friend bought. Gosh, they are beautiful snakes...

[bruno]

Acquire another Northern and IJ of the opposite sex, and breed both. What do you think? You would then have PURE babies with this trait. Now, that's something that would be desired. Including by me! "

Can`t see the different, between what i wrote, and that Zach ?

I would never try to breed the Gigas side, because it is not know for

sure, what kind it is. Then I will end up with a 25/25/50 % animal !.


But it`s sure that the females is Intermedia.

Ells it`s the same statman.

Why, do the people who say they know the breeder, wich breed the

animal, before Siebren, not say somthing here. Profe what has been

statet by other. Andrew wrote he has some pics of the Leucistic, lets

see them !. did wrote an pm to him.

Diden´t you wrote Zach, that you knew the breeder, was it Lisa ?. Why

dont she, help solwe this case ????

It can`t bee that diffucult, to solwe.

If you can`t trust that breeder, and people like Zach and Andrew knows

abouth the breeder, who can then bee trustet. This is no attack, on

you Zach and Andrew, but it`s something to think abouth.

[Zbiz]

I like to keep things natural and work on this thoery(more of a daydream), if there was a massive tragedy that wiped out all the Aussie/Indo/IJ..... skinks in the future, we (owners and breeders) could be asked to donate our animals for a re-population breeding programme, if said animals have been mix and matched, that would present a huge problem, the intended evolved species/sub species for each locale would be totally lost,us skink minders try to replicate nature for our skinks (poorly in most cases) but we do what we can, apart from the blaitent morph money makers, we try to keep it real

I highly doubt my skinks would survive in the wild... even though they are pure northern. They'd probibly go after a funnel web spider thinking it was a cricket.

[Bird_Brain]

I highly doubt that BTS are capable of distinguishing the difference between say a cricket or a spider. They see food, thats it. In the wild, I am sure that blueys would and commonly do eat spiders. That is if they can catch them.

[NomadOfTheHills]

Also, Zach, I highly doubt that those sunset northerns would have survived if born in the wild. Caramel, possibly, but also not likely.


P.S. This is a great conversation everyone!

Ahh, but there are portions in the tanami desert (so I'm told) where Northerns and yes, the bright orange Centralians of the red sands are found in very close range. Perhaps there are Northerns from around these areas who have adapted to the red/clay colored grounds. And remember the "carmels" often end up having black on them at some point in their lives (James Wilson's original line) and that there's hardly any difference (I don't think) between them and regulars. Just lacking a little black but still perfectly capable of camouflage.

Thats a stretch

" We do not cull our BTS when they breed. Chances are, almost all of the BTS born would not make it in the wild. The ones that do were lucky, and most likely have superior genetics. By JUST breeding any BTS, we ARE weakening them, whether they look like a wild type or not. "


All the more reason to stick to au natural as much as possible! Heh, I'm almost waiting for the day when all leo geckos just drop dead -- as you said, when's the last time we've seen an import....scary

What you see as scary, I see as a success for both the bed trade and for wildlife conservation

Luckily, what few Northerns we have in the states are still regular northerns as far as we can tell....keep it that way! Keep it that way! Cue Renee's angry mob smiley.

I really do not understand you fear of morphs, as there is not one species that I can think of where the wild type has disappeared. In most species, the wildtype is still the most common, and what most people start the hobby with. Unless you go to a herp show, you are unlikely to buy a morph. Morphs in pet stores are extremely overpriced compared to normals, even more so than at herp shows.

[KyleWeiss]

There is a difference between an AKC backyard bred golden, and an UKC registered, hip dislpaysia screened, field quality dog.


There are high quality, healthy morphs. You just need to look for them. In many cases, color is the only thing changed. Sure, some morphs are weaker, but they can be weaker, they don't have to deal with predators.

In the wild, Rollie would have been lunch, along with 99% of all our captive bred pets, regardless of how well adapted they are. For every wolf out there, there are the 5 that starved, the 4 that died of mange, the one killed by the grizzly, and the 15 that kicked in the head by a moose.

You seem to miss the point. If Rollie was put out in the wild, not only would he be fine, but in the argument he wouldn't due to domestic conditioning, he'd STILL have a genetic advantage, hidden or not, because he resembles a wild blue tongue (genetically) than a Super Fire and Ice Satan Red Longtail Johnny Rocket Radness Eastern BTS, which could have hidden susceptibilities to anything from parasites, to temperatures, to missing environmental or mating cues.

The thing is, just because he looks like a wild BTS, does not make him any more healthy than a "morph," aside from less predation. Sure, the morph might carry a linked genetic trait for less fitness in the wild, but more than likely, the reason those morphs don't exist in the wild is because it disrupts their natural crypsis.

Like you said, they are weaker. If you admit we're breeding weaker animals, where does it stop? It doesn't. The more and more we breed in the pretty and out the original design eventually will lead to a compromise. Generally, that might not be a big deal, but suffering animals aren't my favorite thing in the world.

We do not cull our BTS when they breed. Chances are, almost all of the BTS born would not make it in the wild. The ones that do were lucky, and most likely have superior genetics. By JUST breeding any BTS, we ARE weakening them, whether they look like a wild type or not.

So the difference between a backyard dog and AKC breed quality dog and one that has genetic mutations differ, how? There's STILL an animal that's being paraded around and bred for something, passing something down to it's offspring. I fail to see how that covers anything up in a good way. I hate to tell you, the ones that end up with REALLY bad genetic hip problems (for dogs) usually end up backyard dogs WITH PAPERS, stating they're something special, so people buy broken, expensive AKC dogs and keep breeding them. Brilliant.

My point was the difference between AKC and UKC dogs. The AKC is a conformation (showing) club, where the UKC is a working club. Dogs registered in the AKC often wind up as backyard breeders, just so the pups can be sold as AKC. The UKC however, while not against conformation, focuses on the working dog, making sure it is physically sound, and able to do the job it was bred for, be it tracking, retrieving, pointing, herding, pulling, etc.

KW

[/b]

You're doing a great job justifying and reiterating the fact you want to nullify my point.

Beauty breeding creates unknown masses of unfit animals. Yes, there may be healthy litters. Which then could carry traits to make unhealthy ones. Most breeders DO NOT CARE about these animals or their plight.

I do. I don't condone an animal being born into potential genetic torture. Morphing and limited bloodlines do just this. We can prevent it by getting more bloodlines and NOT morphing.

KW

[NomadOfTheHills]

Only because I do not agree with you

Popeye is a rare trait, most reptiles breed today readily in captivity. To me, this means they are healthy enough to pass on their genes. While it sounds cruel, I am a fan of culling. Responsible dog breeders do this by neutering, fish keepers do it by feeding weak fry to other fish.

Few in the reptile community cull their neonates, so even while maintaining the wild type, there is no natural selection for fitness. Every captive bred generation makes weaker animals, morph or not. Adding new bloodlines occasionally helps, however, this means more animals taken from the wild.

[Tattoo]

I have secretly suspected John of being a contrarian all along. Now we have it in writing.

[Siebren]

Hi Bruno (and others)

I see you have "come out" with the paternless and created a hell of a discussion! Since I'm partly responsible for this , I thought I'dd jump in the discussion.

I'm extremely pleased to see the animals are doing so good (as I emailed you) but like Zach said you cannot create pure Northerns from these, simply because "something else" is already in there.

About the lines you quoted from Zach;

Siebren-

I also agree that it's too easy to say the cross is the reason for the mutation. My guess is that just one of the animals carries the gene (originally), and passed it on to one of your's. Who knows if the cross-species has anything to do with it. It could be the reason though.

Listen, hang on to your adults. It's possible that either the Northern OR the IJ carry this trait, and it could possibly be passed on to pure babies. Acquire another Northern and IJ of the opposite sex, and breed both. What do you think? You would then have PURE babies with this trait. Now, that's something that would be desired. Including by me!

This was based on a misunderstanding (check for my reaction in the original topic), back then he thought I was the one that was crossbreeding. In that case yes, I could have split the pair to mate with their own (sub)species. Since I (and now you) only had the hybrids to begin with, they should be bred (and sold) that way.

I contacted the original breeder myself last year to aquire more information about her founder animals. Unforntunately she is convinced the animals are 100% pure bred and will not hear of anything else. In fact I'm no longer on speaking terms with her as she was really agrivated by my suggestion.

So, I think the best thing to do is to keep these animals as they are; odd looking Tiliqua of unknown origin. I'm the last person on earth to want Tiliqua go the way corn snakes and leopard geckos did. As morphs are not my cup of tea (either pure ones, or hybrids) I have sold them to you.

You like them and that is all that is important. There could be a place for morph breeding in Tiliqua, but if anything I hope it will be in the way that is seen in Boa contrictors, were morphs are kept and bred alongside animals pure in both subspecies and locality. You can mix in all you want to accomplish what you like, but please make sure none of them are sold as pure breds..

That's my 2 cents, best of luck with the project Bruno!
Hoping for a double litter of (pure bred ) chimaerea's myself this year!

Siebren

[KyleWeiss]

Only because I do not agree with you

Popeye is a rare trait, most reptiles breed today readily in captivity. To me, this means they are healthy enough to pass on their genes. While it sounds cruel, I am a fan of culling. Responsible dog breeders do this by neutering, fish keepers do it by feeding weak fry to other fish.

Few in the reptile community cull their neonates, so even while maintaining the wild type, there is no natural selection for fitness. Every captive bred generation makes weaker animals, morph or not. Adding new bloodlines occasionally helps, however, this means more animals taken from the wild.

The funny part is, you're not disagreeing. You're shifting the focus. That's a tactic, my friend. Politicians are good at it, too.

If you disagreed, you'd probably say, "Well, no, you're wrong, and here's why..." but you haven't said that at all. In fact, you've clearly stated there's weakening in breeding. Which further supports there's weakening with an even smaller gene pool, and you seem to be defending the side of morphing.

You probably disagree with the fact that what I'm saying holds pretty strong merit, but that's a different story. You are apparently okay with the idea of beauty breeding, I'm not. I have specific reasons, you have rationale.

To finish, I'd FULLY support new blood in the form of wild animals within blueys, for example. Then again, I could shift focus taking a page from the "Discussion Tactics," handbook and say "Australian Government supports breeding torture program abroad by not allowing the export of native wildlife," which in a roundabout way is true, but wasn't the goal. Kind of like beauty breeding wasn't intended on a method of torture on the "lesser-thans," that would certainly appear in a selective breeding program, but it happens.

Their attitude towards this, might be:

"Not my problem."

That's a senseless shame.

KW

[KyleWeiss]

Hi Bruno (and others)

I see you have "come out" with the paternless and created a hell of a discussion! Since I'm partly responsible for this , I thought I'dd jump in the discussion.

I'm personally glad you did, since that's what the forum is for, after all. Be responsible for it. I'm honored to be a part of it.

KW

[bruno]

Sorry the names, but it`s only names


Hey Siebren

Then I did misunderstood that, big time. Sorry Zach .

Still, im going to breed that way, what ells can i do.?

As long I tell the facts abouth them. I have done this in Denmark to.

Offscores with allmost the same reaction, But a lot still, think it´s a

Very interessting project, just because off the colours, hence Firebelly.

The animal do not act different in there tanks, than Pure skinks, and

is a joy too look at.

Me statment is, í`ll rater have animals, wich i know arent pure, than

animals, I think is pure , but not 100% sure. The only way to bee that,

is to trawel and collect them in the wild, (non Aus offscores), and with

permission, That would bee very interresting.

I do have a group af T.g.evanscanses, all wild capture. But I will

never bee 100%, nobody can.

All bts sold from petshops in this country, is sold as Blueys ?

Just blueys, They are mostly wild capturet animal, gigas complex.

Who know for sure exatly what is what.

I personly refused to bye a wild capturet, some year ago, wich did

have very black eye stripes . looked like a hybrid,

scincoides/evanscance.

It would bee very satisfactory, if i was abel to, "install" microchips in

the animals, to tell they are hybrids, then again, what i am doing with

this animals, is only a drop in the big ociean.

I am responsebel, for when i`m selling hybrids, on doubt abouth that.

Can`t do more than that, byers have to bee that to.

Good luck with your chimaere, Siebren, mabye i can bye some pure

animals from you one day