Locale and species purity

[Kioka]

The more I look at blue-tongued skinks from different breeders... the more I realize all of them are mutts so far. I haven't seen one that I would consider pure, even though the breeders say they are pure.

I got offered a Northern Blue-Tongued... but its head-shape and pattern look more like Irian Jaya than Northern... Same with a Merauke I got offered, it totally look like a Merauke-Northern cross.

Are there people that try to preserve this or it's pretty much all hope is lost?

I contacted a few boa breeders, with me being concerned with the same thing but different species, and most of them aid that there is only a handful of trust-worthy breeders that try to keep the locales pure; there are a lot that keep the subspecies pure, but not very many that keep the locality pure.

[Zach]

There's hardly anyone that deals only in BTS, thusly they are poorly researched and understood by many dealers. Because of this, a lot of people simply can't tell, or don't care about BTS species. It's all the same to them as they're just selling them off as pets. There are a couple Northern breeders in Canada....Pink T. Monkey and Reptile Rascals. Both people have pure northerns.

But yeah, hybridizing is a problem in the US as well because of so much hybridization...many people think it's no big deal and that we only keep the species pure to make money! We've had a few arguments right here on the board with people who think that....can ya beat it.

[Kioka]

Thanks for dropping a few names. I find it silly people think you guys are trying to make money at it, the best most breeders, even purists, can do is break even. If we are in it for money, then mutts would make more money... seeing how pure specimen are worth less than morphs that resulted from crossing.

It seem like the only way you can get pure BTS is through buying wild-caughts from Indonesia and New Guinea. Regarding purity, my argument is that one day we will never see some of these animals in the wild if things turn for worse, so we should try to keep them pure for people to see in captivity.

I totally understand your concern about purity since I keep and plan to keep more of carpet pythons and boa constrictors, which a lot of them are genetically mutts, even though a lot of people sell them as pure. Apart from the Rhac geckos, skinks is my favourite group of lizards.

[NomadOfTheHills]

You can get T. s. chimerea that are pure.

Also, is that a Bipes sp.?? I love amphisbaenids!!!!

[KyleWeiss]

You can get T. s. chimerea that are pure.

Also, is that a Bipes sp.?? I love amphisbaenids!!!!

Is that what that thing is in the picture? Do explain! It's creepy looking.

Our breeders here deal with pure-bred blueys, they're priced right, and are good people to boot.

KW

[NomadOfTheHills]

Amphisbaenids are not snakes, and not lizards, but are squamates though.

Most are legless, or reduced legged, but the Bipes genus has front digging claws!



Also, I think he is referring to tainted bloodlines. While many of the northerns here are "pure," how sure are we really? Many species have locale specific bloodlines, which are largely absent in the US scincoides market, possibly with the exception of Ray's easterns.

[Zach]

Yeah, it's impossible to tell....if one IJ was mixed into the lineage 15 years ago (only ONE), the babies today may still look 100% Northern. That could be said about any wild BTS however as well in any areas where poplutions overlap (easterns and northerns for example).

That thing almost looks like a baby mole....

[Kioka]

Amphisbaenids are not snakes, and not lizards, but are squamates though.

Most are legless, or reduced legged, but the Bipes genus has front digging claws!

On forums where I am registered as Kioka or Souggy, sometimes I will have this in my signature: "It's not a male anatomy, it's a Bipes biporus!"

Also, I think he is referring to tainted bloodlines. While many of the northerns here are "pure," how sure are we really? Many species have locale specific bloodlines, which are largely absent in the US scincoides market, possibly with the exception of Ray's easterns.

With a closed export market, we can only try to keep it pure as possible.

So it is a perfectly valid question in that regard. I means... how many Carpet Pythons, since some people don't care or are ignorant about subspecies, or Antaresia pythons, due to lack of taxonomic research, are actually completely pure?

I don't mind mutts, I have a couple myself; it is just I want to an honest breeder if I ever decide to try these guys a few years down the line. If I bought a mixed BTS as a Northern, then I will sell its offspring as mixed. Period. It just that if I buy something as the seller say they are, and it turn out to be something else -- I would not be happy since I, myself, could had passed that information on to a costumer due to lack of experience. I was pretty close to buying one of those mixed as purebred specimen, until a friend of mine who is a skink addict told me they were crossed based on several characteristics; he told one of the breeders this and the kid didn't know either.

I probably will buy a few mutts someday, but if I ever decide to breed them, I will sell them and warn people they are not the same as the rare ones you can get from other breeders that are certain about what they are.

I am sure there are lot of people on the forum that deal with and I would love to ask to be on their waiting list. Only problem? Australian-listed species cannot be exported out of the States. Unless U.S. customs don't care if they are from Australia or from Indonesia. Still kinda dumb if you ask me... you can import from Europe, Canada and Asia for Australian specimen but you can't export them out of the States unless you got a piece of paper stating the origin of the bloodline.

[NomadOfTheHills]

Is it yours? I would love one, but have never seen one for sale.


I also have a Jungle Carpet, Morelia spilota cheynei. However, I bought her from a breeder at a herp shwo, who didn't specialize in carpets. So, she probably has some IJ in her, as I have read the carpet lines were tainted years ago.

[Fatal_S]

Kioka, it is possible to import any BTS from the US into Canada. I've done it already with my 2 tanimbars, and will be doing it again in the future. It took a lot of research and running around, and isn't exactly simple to do, but it can be done. Personally I'm looking to get more tannies, shingles, and possibly some keis soon if they're available. During baby season I'm also thinking of doing bigger shipments from the states, where anyone in Canada who wants some could have them all sent to me, then I just send em out within Canada. PM me if you want more information on anything.

[Kioka]

Nah, Mexico doesn't allow for exportation of their wildlife. There is a few zoological establishments that have Bipes biporous, but I don't any of them breed them yet.

I understand the whole Carpet Python too. I got one that look like a Coastal Carpet, but without knowing about the person who bred it, I can't say it is pure.

Kioka, it is possible to import any BTS from the US into Canada. I've done it already with my 2 tanimbars, and will be doing it again in the future. It took a lot of research and running around, and isn't exactly simple to do, but it can be done. Personally I'm looking to get more tannies, shingles, and possibly some keis soon if they're available. During baby season I'm also thinking of doing bigger shipments from the states, where anyone in Canada who wants some could have them all sent to me, then I just send em out within Canada. PM me if you want more information on anything.

Really? That's good to know. I know that Americans are not allowed to export Australian captives anymore, I wasn't sure with the gray area with Blue-tongued Skinks.

Of course, Tanimbar Island don't fall under the Australian territory, does it? I think it is the same with Kei and Merauke I will definitely establish contact with you.

[KyleWeiss]

Well if actual genetic purity is the case, I'm sure even wild specimens are probably the next natural thing to question the "purity."

I mean, how slippery IS the slope, after all?

It's one of those neurotic and interesting human concerns that almost has an infinite definition if you go with it far enough.

From expert breeders that have had many generations of breeding animals that were collected or bought from reputable sources, anyone breeding here will have just about the "purest," you can get in the United States on that definition.

KW