Ping's blood work

[Hijinks]

His fecal results were negative.

The vet I got my second opinion from keeps BTS and seemed to know his general herp stuff, although there were a few things he said that sounded out of line with the common knowledge of this forum. He too was not very concerned about the eye, because it is healing and there's no discharge. He suggested that ASPEN SHAVINGS might be an irritant and I should use a more benign substrate, like the unbleached Carefresh or shredded butcher block paper. He suggested I use a mercury vapor bulb. He also found fault with the diet I have been feeding. Ping has eaten:

PROTEIN
Phoenix worms
Boiled turkey
Boiled beef

GREENS
Dandelion
Collards
Mustard
Turnip

VEGGIES
Acorn squash
Butternut squash
Chayote squash
Zucchini
Summer squash

FRUIT
Mango
Blueberry
Grape
Raspberry

He suggested that I feed mainly FUZZY MICE as protein, which "as a whole animal, it has nearly everything a skink would need." He suggested I get more calcium into the diet...but I don't know what else I could do without coating it in supplements! He eats a lot of greens and he loves the squash.

He disagreed with the prescription of antibiotics. Both vets said Ping does not look or behave like a septic animal, and if he were really in trouble he wouldn't be eating. But he said he would not object if I continued with the injections as instructed, because it will not hurt him as long as I also soak him and ensure he gets hydrated. He suggested that often blood is taken near the tail/vent, and contamination can come from fecal residue in the area.

Before seeing the blood work, he suggested that the digestion of the protein in his diet could have elevated the uric acid levels for the moment. But then when the fax came in, he said that, yeah, it's really high. But one hopeful suggestion was that we can't just look at the uric acid and assume kidney problems, because the phosphorus would also be high. He also said that in front of him was a piece of paper with a chart, and also a healthy looking animal, and often with these guys you need to look closer at the animal than at the paper. He suggested I fast him for 24 hours before the second blood test in two weeks.

[Kioka]

Just remember, no matter where you go, "common knowledge" isn't really "common knowledge." People argue over substrate types, food, heat sources, and so on all the time even among professional and breeders.

I can see why he may suggest a more neutral source of substrate. There is a lot of people out there that use shredded unprinted newspaper or paper towel since aspen shaving sometimes carry mite infestions, and some mice can be allergic to any kind of wood shavings. I agree though, aspen shaving is pretty common substrate that doesn't possess any problem to most, if not all, of the reptiles that are on it.

I can't really say much about the diet since the topic seem to be heavily argued in the BTS community world-wide.

[aggiegirl]

I agree that the aspen could be a culprit. It is cheap and easy to change that variable so I would really consider that.
I feed a diet similar to yours (which is similar to the caresheet.) If you read the literature, pinkies and other animals with bones are not typically a large component of the wild diet. These guys are omnivores but in the wild they eat what they can scavenge---and it isn't generally what that vet recommends. I'm not saying you can duplicate the diet (wish I had enough snails, etc!) but I am saying that even the experts don't feed pinkies often. Talk to vegetarians about calcium sources in veggies. I'll try to discuss this with my mom (a dietician.) I understand the absorption of calcium can be less in some instances but many of the leafy greens/other foods on the care sheet are very high in calcium. My exotic vet thought the diet we are feeding was great. If it isn't, I want to know. Do you have the Bluey Bible or any other books? I have several and they all support what tigergenesis/zach/others on this site recommend. Does your vet have any sources to support his recommendations? The eye looks more like a localized problem than anything else. I also have a hard time trusting bloodwork on an otherwise healthy exotic because I wonder where they get their "normal" ranges. Sorry, I'm rambling. I'm off to bed. Keep us updated.

[Hijinks]

I found Carefresh easier to spot clean than aspen anyway, and he burrowed in it more, so I'll get more of that. Right now he has paper towels as substrate because I didn't want dust getting into the eye.

Yes, the jab at the diet bothered me too. I wondered aloud how it can be that my three month old baby is having tremors and weird blood results with a diet full of calcium, while other BTS reach adulthood on nothing but dog food. Since you asked (nobody shoot the messenger here): His argument for "whole animals" as protein was that in the wild they wouldn't pick and choose select cuts of meat like I get shrink wrapped from the grocery store. I don't know. The first vet thought the diet was great. I walked away from this visit feeling no less worried. Plus he didn't poo today and he wasn't as excited about food (although he ate).

[Lucifer_Spades]

Ok I'm going out on limb here but it's just a thought I had.

When was Ping's last shed?

I know Quigs will kind of twitch and move his body funny as if his whole body itches and rub his face on anything and everything for several days before he sheds.

Not trying to play down your worries or anything just an idea, hope your baby gets well soon.

[aggiegirl]

I agree that they consume bones in the wild. I can see his point there. However, prey with bones probably isn't a major component of a wild bluey's diet. With captive blueys, we are able to select veggies with a higher calcium content to offset the lack of bone-in prey. I agree with you though. I don't think it is diet. Even if it was, the last thing I would do with the high uric acid is to feed more protein. Then again, I'm not an exotic vet so I shouldn't second guess him. The calcium and phosphorus levels were normal. That is reassuring. I'm just saying that I would look elsewhere than diet. Did they do an opthalmic exam or try anything for local opthalmic treatment? (As if your bluey would leave something on! Picture a bluey with an E-collar! ) Keep us posted!

[Zbiz]

Wow its kind of wierd, the Reptile Magazine this month has a whole section on Gout which is caused by high levels of uric acid. I suggest you try and take a look at it if you can. It explains the difference between animal and plant protein and the causes of high uric acid levels. It also explains how to prevent, treat and cure gout. Like using medicine to slow the production of uric acid. Also there is 2 reasons for uric acid build up, primary (diet issues) and secondary (enviromental or an overdose of Anitbiotics!!!!!!). My guess is the unneeded antibiotics is the cause!!! When i get home Im gona reread it and give you a better answer. But definately if you can check it out.

[Hijinks]

Wow, thanks! But the antibiotics can't be the CAUSE, because he wasn't on them when his blood was taken. They were prescribed because of what they saw in the blood results. I am cutting back on his protein and trying to give him more calcium (as recommended by the second vet I saw). I am using crushed egg shells. I am hoping that mixing in little bit of egg or some smelly Wellness cat food will be enough of a "meaty" scent to get him to clean his plate (he wouldn't touch Spot's Stew). Mushed up juicy mango may also work. But to be honest with you all, I'm feeling really pessimistic. I caught this issue very early, because I'm just obsessed with monitoring him. I've spent my time crying for my own selfish reasons ("I am attached to this skink and I don't want to lose him"), and now I just want to know what's wrong with him and cut his suffering off at the pass if it comes to that.

[aggiegirl]

PM me if you can. I'm worried about ya'll.

[SailleSkinklover]

Well, after all the bloodwork and vet visits and advice, I'm curious: Is Ping still showing any symptoms like the twitching? Or was that a one off that scared you into taking him in for the checkup?
I agree with the second vet about the antibiotics. I don't think they should ever be prescribed for a "possibility" of infection, as the antibiotics can so often cause more issues than they heal, so please be careful!
My thinking is sometimes we work ouselves up into a huge worry when the animal really is OK, and just needs its normal life back.
So, are you still thinking there's something wrong with him/scary symptoms happening? If so, what are the current symptoms besides picky eating/not pooing as much? How long have you had him, and whats his behavior now vs. when you first got him? When you first got him, did you have a good Herp vet lined up to do a basic check up or is this his first ever visit to the vets? ( often you can get a good starting point for the animal's health, thats why I take mine to my vet first thing)
What are his temps? I know these are very likely all things you have thought of, because you obviously care deeply for your Ping, but I was just wondering what his current behavioral status is ? Updates on poor Ping-a Ling?

[Hijinks]

I haven't seen another tremor. His poo is now runny and even the urate is runny. His behavior is basically the same (he gets up to bask when his light comes on, he hides at night, he moves around a bit throughout the day), although he seems calmer and lazier lately. I haven't even had him long enough to know what's normal. Maybe he's calm because he's used to me and his environment, or maybe he's calm because he's got no energy. I'm scheduled to give him his antibiotic injection tonight. I am nervous to do it, but who am I to go against the advice of two vets? One prescribed it and the other said it won't hurt as long as I also soak him.

He is only three months old. I have had him since July 2nd. Temps are 80 on the cool end and 100-105 at the basking spot. I didn't take him to the vet when I got him. Perhaps I should have, just for a base line, but...how many people who buy a baby from a private breeder rush off to the vet immediately? Both vets placed a lot of emphasis on his active behavior. I went so far as to submit the case to yet another vet I found online for yet another opinion. Without seeing him to take behavior into account, he suspected renal disease with secondary anemia from the tremor and the blood work. He told me to ask my vet to order a creatinine and blood urea nitrogen (BUN), for a better picture of what might be going on with the kidneys. (I called but she's not in today!) Yeah...I'm completely prone to working myself up into a huge worry. It is just so odd because he's so young.

Saille...thanks for your concern.

[SailleSkinklover]

Hi Hijinks,
Check out my vet's care sheet info: http://www.avianexoticanimalhospital.co ... leSick.pdf

Their number is on there as well and though I don't think they do diagnosis over the phone, they may be able to answer some of your worries. I love my vet and Highly recommend him, even though I know you're on the other coast, and if you are really worried, you can try giving them a call. You might get a better answer about injecting your Bluey with antibiotics he may or may not need, anyway.
Otherwise, keep it as natural as you can for little PingLing, (he's such a cute little guy) and if he's got diarrhea, try just giving him only water for a day, no food, then feed him the next day. I had to do that with Chuff when I got him back from the lizard-sitter after we were gone for a week. When I got Chuff back, he had two (!!!) major bouts of liquid poo, and I was scared! but I just kept him warm, gave him only water, and the next day, things were back to normal. My vet suggested feeding only tough greens like Collard and bok choy for a couple of days if he didn't "tighten up". I hope this helps, I know how scary it can be when you don't know if your baby might be sick or not. Maybe also, start another thread and ask forum users if there are any god Herp Vet recommendations out in your area.
(I think the last vet you talked to online sounded scary, diagnosing anemia and renal failure without seeing the animal! Did you tell them your blood work results and were they a Herp certified vet?)
Just remember too, these guys are really tough and survive quite well with much less/worse care than you are giving, so keep your chin up and keep us posted! I'm rooting for Ping to be a healthy, Goomba-headed little food snarfer!

[Bird_Brain]

Im kinda confused why the vet recommended increasing the skinks calcium intake? The calcium levels are in the normal range. Did he give an explanation why he recommends to increase the calcium?

[Hijinks]

Thanks, Saille...we have good news on the poo front today. It was actually a solid unit! He ate lots. It was also injection day, and soak day, so it was a bad day from his perspective. I too am worried about how necessary the injections are, since the prescribing vet had her doubts and the second vet said he wouldn't have prescribed them at all. How can I word this when I talk to the vet again, without sounding ridiculous? I am just some overzealous punk questioning her judgment because I read some stuff on the INTERWEBS.

The regular vet I am seeing is not listed on herp vet connection or ARAV, but her colleague at the clinic who she is consulting on Ping's case is on both sites. My next appointment is with him directly. The vet I saw for the 2nd opinion is on both. (The online vet is actually on both too.)

Im kinda confused why the vet recommended increasing the skinks calcium intake? The calcium levels are in the normal range. Did he give an explanation why he recommends to increase the calcium?

I think it's because he's still a baby, and the phosphorus is slightly higher than the high end of normal.

[Leigh]

Antibiotics are good at what they do, if he's had them for no reason ask if this could be an issue later on if he DOES get an infection, as there could be an ammunity to the anti biotics, not sure if that sounds right, hmm.

[Zach]