How safe are feeders?

[aggiegirl]

When I got Pele', he had a raging case of pinworms. I am not freaked out by endoparasites but his worm burden was very high. For this reason, I dewormed him (twice) until I didn't observe eggs. Medicating any animal (especially a cold-blooded one) is something that I think should not be taken lightly. I occasionally feed roaches, silkworms, earthworms, snails, crickets (rarely), waxworms, and mealworms to my blueys. I realize that no animal has a "sterile" gut and that blueys are pretty much scavengers in the wild. Am I taking a risk by using these feeders? Which ones/source are the safest? If I feed them, should I check fecals? If I check fecals, what do I use as my criteria for deworming (ie parasite load, type?) Am I just being paranoid?
I realize I have a bunch of questions but I just am fairly new to reptiles, I have kids, and my two blueys are beloved pets. I think both of my guys enjoy the thrill of live prey but I am trying to weigh benefit vs. risk. Any comments, advice, or additional prey-related questions are welcome. (Just realize that if you post more questions that I won't be the one equipped to answer them! )

[NomadOfTheHills]

I would say that you are being a bit paranoid. Generations of reptiles are and have been kept on purely feeder diets.

You are right though, that it does increase the risk of parasites. Crickets are the dirtiest IMO, and not really worth it for something the size of a bluey, and many people will tell you not worth it nutritionally for a bluey either.

Roaches and silks are great options, and I am partial to young rodents, as they are full of calcium.

[aggiegirl]

I am relieved (but not suprised) to hear your response. I just want to feed my guys properly. I would have to say roaches are their most commonly offered invert. (as I am raising these) but they seem to enjoy a variety of feeders. I will continue with the status quo until convinced otherwise. I'll take some of the silkworm eggs out of my fridge tomorrow. If they can't incubate in Texas without supplemental heat, I suppose it isn't meant to be. If these were cheaper and easier to feed, they would be my first choice.
Do the beardy owners have problems with parasites? After all, young beardies are kind of the poster children for cricket sales. I find it facinating that beardies, some tortoises, and other reptiles rely so heavily upon invertebrate prey as youngsters and gravitate towards a more veggie-based diet as adults. Do blueys in the wild eat proportionately more prey as juveniles? After all, I think many breeders/owners tend to feed this way. As a matter of fact, the man I purchased Pele' from feeds troutchow, catfood, and other high protein foods with few veggies/fruits. He has bred blueys for over 12 years and he contends that they eat a high protein diet in the wild. I spoke with him about the diet suggested on our caresheet and he was worried about the calcium. He doesn't appreciate that veggies can be a significant source. I mentioned that the diet was supported by several texts and magazine articles. Also, I can't imagine prey foods that young blueys can catch (ie inverts---excluding snails) in the wild would be very high in calcium. I would actually think our selected group of greens (ie esp. collards) provide more calcium than many of the plants that blueys would find while grazing native plants. I am still new to reptiles/blueys but I've been pondering these things and would appreciate any feedback.
Oh, and feeding pinkies is not an option. We went to a recent reptile show and my 4 year old "rescued" a rat pup. I had to take my tearful child back to the show and have her apologize for taking his "pet." Feeding rodents would not sit well with the kids. Besides, Pele' seems to be pushing maximum density...
Sorry as I am rambling. I am tired. Congrats if you actually read through this whole thread. Bigger congrats if you care to respond.

[SailleSkinklover]

I talked to my vet about parasites, and I'll ask him about "load" when Chuff gets re-checked next week. I do know that crickets are the pinworm carriers, and that my Chuff doesn't get them due to poor nutrition, dryness, and just eeeeewww. (He had hookworm and another type of parasite that I can't remember the name of right now, will ask on that too.)
He wouldn't touch silkworms, which made me sad as I hear that they are so good for them. My gecko seemed to like them ok though.
He loves waxworms, and I'm going to try butterworms next.
My vet said that snails can carry parasites as well, and that to get them out of the cycle, to raise your own snails which is pretty easy to do. Just a small tank, filter, some water plants for them to munch, and wait for a month or so and you get lots of little snails. Wait for them to grow, then feed away!
I'll be sure to ask more questions about parasites at my vet next week.

[mom22wins]

I was wondering if you have a CB bluey and you don't feed it any wild prey, could it still get worms or parasites just from walking outside in the grass?

[B3N]

Are roaches hard to breed? How are they nutritionally?

[NomadOfTheHills]

I am relieved (but not suprised) to hear your response. I just want to feed my guys properly. I would have to say roaches are their most commonly offered invert. (as I am raising these) but they seem to enjoy a variety of feeders. I will continue with the status quo until convinced otherwise. I'll take some of the silkworm eggs out of my fridge tomorrow. If they can't incubate in Texas without supplemental heat, I suppose it isn't meant to be. If these were cheaper and easier to feed, they would be my first choice.
Here here!
Do the beardy owners have problems with parasites? After all, young beardies are kind of the poster children for cricket sales. I find it facinating that beardies, some tortoises, and other reptiles rely so heavily upon invertebrate prey as youngsters and gravitate towards a more veggie-based diet as adults.I would imagine that the young need more protein as young to grow, and have faster metabolisms. As they age, and their metabolism slows down, they need less fat and protein, so plants become more appetizing. This is all speculation of course.
Do blueys in the wild eat proportionately more prey as juveniles?
I would imagine they would, to be honest I am not convinced that they are big veggie eaters in the wild. If you look at the dentation of most herbivores, you see teeth and jaws designed for ripping or cutting through leaves. Torts have beaks, beardies, sharp litle teeth. When you look at a BTS, you see a powerful neck, characteristic of predators, as well as a jaw and teeth designed for crushing, in my opinion for hard exoskeltons/shells.

After all, I think many breeders/owners tend to feed this way. I would imagine they would, although As a matter of fact, the man I purchased Pele' from feeds troutchow, catfood, and other high protein foods with few veggies/fruits. He has bred blueys for over 12 years and he contends that they eat a high protein diet in the wild. I spoke with him about the diet suggested on our caresheet and he was worried about the calcium. Well, while his diet is very high in protein, I worry that it is also very high in low quality grains. Just as most dog/cat/fish food is of very low quality, I imagine that the same problems of high amounts of low quality grains as fillers are not very beneficial towards BTS as well. They are omnivores however, and can live on less than ideal diets. Calcium wise, greens are a good source, but I still like to suppliment with pure calcium just to be safe. Any extra can be excreted through urates. He doesn't appreciate that veggies can be a significant source. I mentioned that the diet was supported by several texts and magazine articles. Also, I can't imagine prey foods that young blueys can catch (ie inverts---excluding snails) in the wild would be very high in calcium. I would actually think our selected group of greens (ie esp. collards) provide more calcium than many of the plants that blueys would find while grazing native plants. I am still new to reptiles/blueys but I've been pondering these things and would appreciate any feedback. Lets get an Aussies opinion on this, I don't know what grows over there But, dandelion greens, for example, grow wild here, and are full of calcium

Oh, and feeding pinkies is not an option. We went to a recent reptile show and my 4 year old "rescued" a rat pup. I had to take my tearful child back to the show and have her apologize for taking his "pet." Feeding rodents would not sit well with the kids. Besides, Pele' seems to be pushing maximum density...
hopefully that will change so you can join the snake hobby! I have had pet rats, but they are a prey species by nature, i bet as your boys grow they will want a snake lol

Sorry as I am rambling. I am tired. Congrats if you actually read through this whole thread. Bigger congrats if you care to respond.

I read it

[aggiegirl]

SSL-let me know what your vet says about parasite load; I will keep checking my guys just out of curiosity if nothing else; they will share a pen one day so it is good to know
B3N-roaches aren't the best or the worst; they are mentioned in the caresheet; they are simple to breed/care for (get the dubias as they don't climb well/fly); mine get them as "treats" but not necessarily as a staple; they can carry parasites too
M2T-I don't know about Sammy but Charlotte eats poop (bird, dog, whatever); I'm constantly fishing things out of her mouth; so, yes, if your bluey's dietary habits are like Charlotte's, it is possible; some herbivores even get parasites grazing so it is possible that way too; anything is possible, but your single bluey is at lower risk for sure; oh, most parasites that blueys get are not transferrable to your kids (Salmonella bacteria are an exception)
NOH-I totally agree with your opinions and I have considered most of these things too; you also voiced some things (ie beaks, teeth) that I hadn't even considered but that I think are really important considerations; I think it is important for us to think about what blueys eat in the wild to formulate our captive diets; I would like the Aussies input on this as well! (HINT)
I will be a snake owner when a certain place freezes over. I won't even enter the raffles at reptile shows because I know I would win one!!! Then my son would be thrilled and my daughters would be horrified. If I enter the next raffle, will you take any snake that I might win? I suppose I could get one of the smaller snakes that are not so rodent-dependent (few and far between) but why should I do that when I can have the smooth snake like feeling with short stubby legs attached! I don't have anything against snakes, I just couldn't feed them (which might obviously be a problem .) That is one reason I'm not too keen on reptile show raffles. People win living creatures that they are not equipped to handle or know nothing about. Sorry, pet peeve. Can you tell?
Oh well, I said I wasn't ever going to be cricket-dependent and I now have a cresty. I said I would never raise roaches and there are over 100 in my dining room buffet. You see what a horrible influence all of you bluey people are! I should never visit that darned OT thread.
Thanks guys, as always, you've given me even more things to consider.

[Leigh]

My beardie and Bluey get hoppers{young locusts}they are relished ,more nutritional,less smelly and quiet,I have no idea about what micro-organisms they could carry, I recomend visiting a GOOD reptile outlet, check the condition of their packaging and living conditions, where I go the clear plastic containers are fresh filled to order. I went to one once and the feeders looked like they'd been sat in their boxes for a week, full of poo and stinking, with signs of cannabalising, SO DIDNT buy or visit that place again. Last thing, you can get over paranoid if you think about it too much,breed your own roaches ,its easy just dont let any escape, snails are easy too, think about land snails if a tanks not an option, ya'll are sensible owners that strive to do the best, so quality over quantity is my motto!!!

[NomadOfTheHills]

Garters are great beginner snakes, as their favorite food is earthworms. Just something to keep in mind

[Leigh]

Have you ever tried them for your skink, I'll try this year when the snails do a runner{so to speak}as worms are all year round food here

[aggiegirl]

NOH---Yes, I knew you would find a loophole in the snake thing! I've seen some really bitey garters though. Of course, they were wild caught and ticked off about the whole captivity thing!
Leigh---Were you talking about earthworms? My Pele' adores them! However, last time he ate one, he didn't seem like himself for a day or two afterwards. I kinda question my source. I will do these again. It is insanely fun to watch!!!! It is like godzilla vs. a giant anaconda!
Aussies---What do your guys eat in the wild?
Thanks guys!

[NomadOfTheHills]

Dwight doesn't mind earthworms, and they are a goos source of calcium, feeder wise.

[Zach]

Garters are great beginner snakes, as their favorite food is earthworms. Just something to keep in mind

I could never get my garter snakes to eat as a kid, and I always heard they didn't eat in captivity. That doesn't make much sense when thinking about it nowadays..

[LittleFoot]

Garters are great beginner snakes, as their favorite food is earthworms. Just something to keep in mind

I could never get my garter snakes to eat as a kid, and I always heard they didn't eat in captivity. That doesn't make much sense when thinking about it nowadays..

I always heard that too growing up, that garters don't eat in captivity. Yet, you always hear about people who have had their garters for 10-15 years.

[aggiegirl]

I think the level of care that reptiles receive now is probably higher than what it was during many of our childhoods. I know we didn't use temp guns, UV lights, proper substrates, etc. I shudder when I think about the poor horny toad that I probably starved to death since I could never find enough ants. (I was 6 years old.) I'm guessing most well-cared for herps live longer in captivity now than they would in the wild. As our knowledge of proper care increases, that should only improve (for conscientious owners.) Even wild-caught garters probably can be convinced to eat well in an appropriate habitat with the appropriate prey.
Nomad, how about a picture of Dwight? (It isn't off topic as I'm going to compare his appearance to that of my blueys! ) I have a cute little garter who I occasionally glimpse in my yard---of course, she sees me and takes off!

[NomadOfTheHills]

I've had many garters, they do eat lol, and with gusto.

I think what happens often is people think they have a garter, but instead have a ribbon snake. Ribbon snakes will not eat worms, but are big fish/amphib. eaters.

[Zach]

Man, ribbon snakes look identical, but I'm not sure we have them in Oregon....

[Leigh]

Nice photos Nomad,

[mom22wins]

Man, John! Just love those close-ups!