Can you cross breed BTS's?

[2BTS's]

Like can breed any BTS with any other kind? Is it harder?

[Blotch]

ok dude - I'll fill you in on something. i was banned from this site along time ago due to me wanting to hybridize blueys. My word of advice - don't mention it on the boards! Most people here will start crucifying you for even thinking it.

Fact is this: SOME blueys naturally come across each other in the wild (blotchies with easterns, bltchies with stumpys, Easterns with Northerns - however northerns and easterns are basically the same - i forget the exact terms, someone will no doubt fix that absence of mind up for me) and they do infact breed with each other. There is nothing wrong with this due to the fact that as I said it DOES happen NATURALLY.

Now this is where the debate comes in. If you have hybrid babies, you could be an A$$ and sell them as either northerns or Easterns (if that is the mix) and no one would really be the wiser unless it did infact look different from both it's parents. doing this is basically ripping people off and polluting the Captive bred gene pool so to speak. It is especially frowned upon by Americans due to export laws prohibiting Us (aussies) from exporting more blueys to the states, and as I mentioned the pollution of the CB gene pool.

In saying that, there are apparently some forms of bluey that will not conceive due to genetic differences, which ones I can't remember - but also - you run the risk of the female giving birth to baron babies. So, if you are going to do this even though people on here are opposed to it - 1 - keep it quiet (talk to only those that you know are for it) 2 - keep within the natural breeding lines (those that hybridize naturally) and 3 - if you sell hybrids - please make sure you label them as exactly what they are HYBRIDS!!!!!!!

EDIT: Also, sometimes there is the possibility of the female receiving more damage through mating than normal or even dying, so please be aware of the risks and if you do infact attempt it (which I'm neither approving or disapproving) - be responsibe and do not take your eyes off them.

I hope this explains it.

[Edward]

Can you? Yes.

Should you? No.

[Blotch]

Can you? Yes.

Should you? No.

YOU think he shouldn't - be clear and give reasons - that sort of answer helps no-one.

[Edward]

[deftones2015]

An actual statement or reason would be nice from a Moderator of the site. Maybe a little more reasoning than and would be nice? I would actually like to know why personally. I'm sure there are hybrids in nature.

[Edward]

I'm sure there are hybrids in nature.

Yes, you are correct. But I would challenge anyone to show that they are the norm rather than the exception ... in any species.
Nature knows best. Humans don't.

[Blotch]

Blueys aren't native to the US - that's not the norm - but they are there because of humans - same logic applies.

[Dragontears]

while hybrids make as good a pet as a pure species, it is hard to keep track of who is hybrid and who isn't. Since we can't get any more from Oz, we'd like to keep the lines that we have going. Edward's statement, while concise, is valid...CAN you: yes, SHOULD you: no.

Please don't compare mutt blueys to mutt dogs, which always comes up. "Mutt dogs have the best personality, etc etc etc" Blueys aren't dogs. We can't just find another breeder somewhere and get more pure bred blueys.

From the caresheet:

Hybridization
(A hybrid is an offspring of two animals of different species. I.e. the offspring of a Blotched and an Eastern)
Plainly put, we are against the cross breeding of any blue tongue skink. Crossing the species does nothing except put hybrids out onto the market, and there is absolutely NO POINT. People who breed hybrids and sell them, or even give them away have absolutely no control over where they end up in the long run. The easily forgotten fact that they are hybrids will probably also not be retained, and they will be sold as a Blotched, or an Eastern, or whatever... when they are in fact mixed. But who knows for sure once the blue tongue is shipped around? It looks like an Eastern doesn't it? Or a Blotched? There will be no way to tell for sure. Once the animals get changed hands one too many times, the fact that they are hybrids fizzles away. Plus, when you make hybrids, what do you have? It's not an Eastern, it's not a Northern; it's a mutt. And when you sell it or give it away, and that person breeds it (even if they say they aren't going to), it just starts a whole chain reaction of mixed animals. Many individuals maintain the excuse: "The babies are pretty", but there is no valid reason to mix up the species. While some hybridization does occur naturally in the wild, it is not near enough to endanger or contaminate a species. In their natural environment, the ratio of hybridization is something like 1% of total wild populations.

Another problem with deliberate hybridization is the very frustrating obstacle of recognizing, determining, and IDing mongrel animals. A lot of people come to this site wondering what species of skink they have. Do you think they want to hear (after probably being told something else) "You have a hybrid". A mutt, a mongrel, a mix, call it what you want, but it's not even a real blue tongue species. And this is only if we can ID it. Half the time we have no idea for sure (100% sure).

It's also a big problem because many (if not most) people don't even know there are different BTS species. A blue tongued skink is a blue tongued skink to them. They then breed whatever they have, and sell them to people calling them "easterns", "Irian Jaya" or usually just "blue tongue skink"—they then come here wanting us to ID them, and often times it's just impossible to say because who knows what it's mixed with or even if ITS original parents may have been hybrids. In the BTS pet trade, if people hybridize, we will eventually not have any pure species, but just a bunch of halfbreeds that are unidentifiable. This is mainly because we CANNOT get any new species from Australia. As always with mixed species, without the history of the animal, it's impossible to determine the mix beyond a shadow of a doubt. We can make pretty accurate guesses, but you can never be 100% without knowing its history. Now imagine that animal breeding with another. Mixed animals can spread exponentially and the threat is particularly dangerous because of the rarity of the BTS in the United States. People just aren't educated enough about them, and they're anxious to earn some cash with what they have. We recently met a seller who bred an Irian Jaya with an Eastern. He was a nice enough guy, but he just didn't know about the different species—and neither did the pet store who sold them as a "breeding pair"). The babies looked almost 100% Irian Jaya. If this keeps up, there will soon be no Easterns in the United States. Exportation from Australia is, of course, illegal, and some believe that the lacking eye stripe (of the Eastern) in American specimens is a direct result of hybridization. I'd like to nip this problem in the bud, and STRONGLY advise anyone and everyone against it.

To further my point with one last example, let's consider someone breeding together two incredibly valuable animals such as the Western and Centralian. What would you think about this? To show what I mean, the Western is worth about two thousand dollars, and the Centralian is worth probably even more. Now imagine instead of finding the proper mates, someone bred the two together, creating a hybrid that was worth nothing. If you know anything about the species, this would be plain insanity for both the breeder (investment wise), and for customers. In reality, a person who knew what he had, would not do this simply for investment reasons. Well, I believe this same respect should be given to lesser valuable animals as well. If this doesn't quite make sense, consider two random very valuable (and possibly rare) animals. Somebody takes one of the rare animals and instead of finding it a proper mate, he breeds it to the other rare animal of a completely different species. Would you consider this a responsible thing to do? Of course not. And a rare or valuable animal should not be what opens our eyes to the problem of intentional hybridizing. An animal is an animal created by nature no matter how big, small, rare, or common, and they should be appreciated exactly how they were created by nature. I've had several people ask me about dogs. Since all dogs are essentially man-made and traits are bred over hundreds and thousands of years (and mixes are generally thought to be stronger/smarter) then this could be seen as a valid argument to cross breed your blue tongue. However, pure bred dogs are not pure in the same way that your blue tongue is a pure wild species.

My views may seem extreme to some, but when it all comes down to it, there is just not one good reason to mix up the species—especially when hybrid animals can propagate. Many hybrid animals such as mules are unable to produce offspring, so contamination of the species is not a threat. This is not the case with blue tongued skinks. Blue tongue hybrids CAN reproduce. Here is a hybrid animal.

[Blotch]

DT - that statement on the caresheet is very one sided. I choose to ignore that in the discussion simply for that reason. Basically I see it as this - Americans are against it simply because you guys can't get more.
As I stated using edwards logic - Blueys aren't even native to your country - so therefore you have no real say in what someone should or shouldn't do in regards to hybrids. If nature knows best - then i suggest you put things right by sending all your blueys back to their country of origin. After all - you only have blueys cuz man took them there.

I'd just like to state - I'm neither for or against - I'm pro choice - as long as it's done properly by a responsible keeper as stated in previous posts.

Ohh btw - there are certain hybrid blueys that can't propegate - might be good if that thing on the caresheet was based on fact rather than opinion.

There is no argument nor debate here.

Good discussion though!

[deftones2015]

Well I do appreciate your response Dragontears, at least you have a reason. A simple Should you: no can you: yes is no help at all. People don't come to this site for one ended half thought out answers with emoticons. I know I don't at least. I come here for responses like yours. A valid reason with something behind it. Not merely an answer I could get from any breeder or author around the world. Even they would probably at least give an explanation. Once again I thank you for your explanation as into why the species shouldn't be mixed.

[Dragontears]

DT - that statement on the caresheet is very one sided. I choose to ignore that in the discussion simply for that reason. Basically I see it as this - Americans are against it simply because you guys can't get more.
As I stated using edwards logic - Blueys aren't even native to your country - so therefore you have no real say in what someone should or shouldn't do in regards to hybrids. If nature knows best - then i suggest you put things right by sending all your blueys back to their country of origin. After all - you only have blueys cuz man took them there.

I'd just like to state - I'm neither for or against - I'm pro choice - as long as it's done properly by a responsible keeper as stated in previous posts.

Ohh btw - there are certain hybrid blueys that can't propegate - might be good if that thing on the caresheet was based on fact rather than opinion.

There is no argument nor debate here.

Good discussion though!

I agree, the caresheet is very one sided...Zach wrote it and has written his opinion the way he wanted it phrased. His opinion is shared by others on the forum though and I wanted to quote it in case other members hadn't come across it yet.

I'm ignoring the "nature knows best" in the sense that you are interpreting it with send all the blueys back to where they came from. That idea is so far from what can feasibly be done that it doesn't really enter my brain as an option. I just imagine little blueys with their suitcases and passports ready as they board the plane back to their homeland.


I like the guidelines you mentioned about hybrids. IF they were followed explicitly, I don't think there would be as much of an issue with hybrids as there is. The fact is though, that it's hard to keep track of hybrids. Take me for example. I produced Merauke x IJ babies back in 2004. There were 8 babies. Of those 8, I know where 6 of them are. The other two went to someone, who traded to someone else.....one eventually ended up in a petstore back in my home town, but I have no idea who bought him from there. Those two may be bred or not, and the owners may or may not know or care that they are hybrids. If they could be microchipped or whatever to tag them as hybrids for the rest of their lives it would be different, but there is no way to guarantee that the hybrid term will follow them around their entire life.


I'm talking in circles.....


I guess my point comes down to this: Your statement "Basically I see it as this - Americans are against it simply because you guys can't get more. " makes it sound like that reasoning isn't valid, when in fact I think it is. Blueys aren't a dime a dozen here, so why not try to keep them as pure as we can for as long as we can?

Yes there is a debate here. I think there always will be. however, I think if people stay rational we don't have to turn it into an argument.

Other input?

[Blotch]

ok first off - you're guilty of exactly what you are arguing against - no offence - that's hypocritical. If you were that serious about your argument - you would never have let the 2 breed. and if by chance you couldn't help the breeding - you shouldn't have sold or gotten rid of the babies. - Why didn't you destroy them?

In regards to you ignoring my comment on nature knows best - using edward logic - then all US blueys should be destroyed if not sent back to Oz. they are not a native American species - therefore to stop people from doing exactly what you did - destroy them all.

It's not a nice thought huh?

I see your point in the whole cb gene pool - if you think i don't, go re-read my initial post - you'll see I'm actually covering both sides. You guys Cannot TELL anyone what they should or shouldn't do. You can advise against it - which is fine - but if you are going to do that - you need to be fair and allow people to make their own choice and not crucify them for making a choice that may be different to that in which you would've made.

[Edward]

If nature knows best - then i suggest you put things right by sending all your blueys back to their country of origin. After all - you only have blueys cuz man took them there.

And by following your logic, all of your blueys should go back to the bush where they "naturally" belong. After all, you only have blueys cuz man took them there (to the enclosures where you keep them).

[Edward]

People don't come to this site for one ended half thought out answers with emoticons.

I'm positive you have years of experience keeping BTS to judge my "half thought out answers." I'm sure you do.

[Zach]

as long as it's done properly by a responsible keeper as stated in previous posts.

Hehe, what a topic, here we go again! Number one: There is NO responsibility when deliberately creating a hybrid. The very thought is ridiculous because no matter how safe or smart you think you are, there's no possible way to keep track of all of them 100% unless you keep them locked up forever yourself.

Ohh btw - there are certain hybrid blueys that can't propegate - might be good if that thing on the caresheet was based on fact rather than opinion.

And which one's? How do you know? How can you prove it? A Blotched and an Eastern cross can't breed perhaps? A Western and Shingleback? There's no proof or research on any of that. It is however proven that virtually any species CAN cross as I've seen countless hybrids from all different species, as well as hybrids of hybrids of hybrids. And boy....when you get down that far, there's no way to tell what it is anymore. A true shame.

I might add that there is no fact when it comes to hybrids and BTS. It entirely comes down to opinion, and it's simply whether you think it should be done, or not. Give me some GOOD reasons to do it here in the states, and I'll gladly add a "pro" column. If you say "hybrids have pretty colors", I'll barf.

And yep! The most important reason is indeed because we simply cannot receive Aussie species. Luke, I've seen Northerns crossed with Indonesians. The babies are easy to identify, and I've seen BABIES from those babies. What were those babies crossed with? Irian Jaya. Want to know what those babies look like? It's the posts where all of us are scratching our heads because people who don't know anything about BTS are breeding whatever they have as fast as they can. There are countless Northerns here in the US that are MOSTLY Northern, but clearly not 100%. There are very few who can even spot a 100% pure Northern here in the states I'm sorry to say.

Luke (Blotch) is right. No one can tell anyone else what to do. But everyone has a right to (what was the word you used) crucify anyone for it. Cross-breeding is negligent. In Australia, do what you want, you have plenty of pure stock! But here, it's irresponsible. There are truly NOT ENOUGH people who know BTS. The knowledge is just not there! If BTS were incredibly popular and people knew there were even different species, we might be in better shape. In the next 20 years, Luke, I want to be able to still see the beautful Northerns for sale just as they are in your wild bush! YOU have no threat of extinction in your neighborhood! WE DO!!! If we do what you say here in the US, I guarantee you 100%, they will not be around and will slowly vanish. And they are. There will be more crosses than pure Northerns/Easterns, and it will be one jumbled mess. I get lots and lots of emails with pictures. You don't want to know how many hybrid pictures I see. Trust me when I write my "one-sided" paragraphs on the care sheet. They are 100% accurate and essential if we want to see our BTS as they are in nature in the decades to come.

ok dude - I'll fill you in on something. i was banned from this site along time ago due to me wanting to hybridize blueys. My word of advice - don't mention it on the boards! Most people here will start crucifying you for even thinking it.

And you were never banned for hybridizing -- that's completely ludicrous, dude.

[Zach]

Like can breed any BTS with any other kind? Is it harder?

Hello! I've already put in my 2 cents, but I may as well answer you directly since you asked the question. It's a very good question.

I will just lightly reiterate that exporting of any reptile is illegal in Australia, thusly we cannot get Northerns or Easterns anymore. What we have now is what we got. Now you tell me if cross breeding our small population is a good idea.

Personally, I love the Northerns and it would be a shame if our eventual BTS population all looked the same.

Too bad there aren't more BTS here in the US. Our stock is so small.

[Blotch]

Zach - I was banned due to that. It was because people were smashing me over something that i was interested in, when they had no right. Anything i was attempting did not affect you guys and therefore didn't warrent the attacks. you banned me for defending myself. Also, yes - like the other thread that I asked you if you would like to dance - Here we go again.

I think people may need to read my original Post rather than picking out parts that suit them. I clearly stated that it does in fact pollute the CB gene pool that you guys have over there, also the fact that i neither agree nor disagree with hybridizing. I simply don't care what you guys do with your blueys other than physically harming them. I couldn't care if you have purelines or not, it's just not relavent to me or Australia.
In regards to the hybrids that are baron - i'll find the literature for you. I did infact read it, so once I find it - you will have a copy. i promise you this.

Now in regards to Edwards comment - well it doesn't require a response cuz it was lame, but i'll humour you. That comment was simply twisted to suit your own gain. It was YOUR logic edward - not mine. I live in Australia, I'm native to this country - my ancestors weren't but I am. I have blueys all around - how cool is that!!! Unfortunately for you, you don't, I feel for you i really do. Maybe you should get a corn snake or something? - oh - and in defence of deftones - as i stated - One and 2 word answers don't help anyone Edward, He obviously doesn't have the experience you or i do, hence why he made that call - cuz those closed off 2 word answers don't help anyone. If you pay attention to how Other people help out on this board, you'll notice that they type a few more words and actually explain their views. You should try it, never know, you may like it!

I'm backing out of this - cuz i feel it getting nasty. Fact is no matter what Zach, Edward, DragonTears or I think - Each individual will make their own choice in the end. You can Advise, but this holier than thou crap needs to stop. Dragontears is guilty of this exact thing, i'm not - I haven't done it - I'm interested, i've tried, and i've abandoned it, but does she get chewed out? Well I haven't seen that happen, and I haven't seen anyone bring that up since she mentioned it earlier in this thread. You guys need to relax, people are OBVIOUSLY interested in this topic, so Put your views forward, but you can't do much more than that - those that disagree will have to agree to do so.

We're not kids are we?

[Blotch]

Like can breed any BTS with any other kind? Is it harder?

Hello! I've already put in my 2 cents, but I may as well answer you directly since you asked the question. It's a very good question.

I will just lightly reiterate that exporting of any reptile is illegal in Australia, thusly we cannot get Northerns or Easterns anymore. What we have now is what we got. Now you tell me if cross breeding our small population is a good idea.

Personally, I love the Northerns and it would be a shame if our eventual BTS population all looked the same.

Too bad there aren't more BTS here in the US. Our stock is so small.

I have to quote you on this cuz i actually agree with that argument.
But as i've also said i'm pro choice dude. It would be a shame, but it doesn't affect me. Hence my previous "I simply don't care" comment.
Probably written wrong due to my hands going 100mph. But I stand by what i said about crucifying people. the best thing YOU personally can do, is keep breeding your pure lines and keep them going just like Ray and the guys. Never know - Hybrids may one day push up the price of your guys and as well as doing the "RIGHT" thing for the blood lines - you could make a better buck!? Just a couple of potential positives for you and your pocket. *shrugs*

[2BTS's]

Hmm...Very interesting responses on here. So I know you guys are worried about pushing pure breed species out, but you all would not like to see some new species? What about the topic on selective breeding? I think it would be cool to get an all yellow BTS...don't you? I don't know if any of you have ever dealy with leopard geckos, but they were breed through selective breeding and now are some very cool morphs! I think it would be kinda cool to have BTS's like that to. This would be through selective breeding. I know it would take much longer as BTS's don't reach sexually maturity until the age of 2. Anyways I did not know the hybrids could be such a problem. Thanks for all the input