Lighting?

[SailleSkinklover]

I was curious about People' set up lighting:
Do most people have two lights, one for UVB basking, and one for temperature-control/warmth basking at the warm end of their enclosures? Or do you guys just have one light that does both? If so, what brand/wattage? And how far from the basking rock is your light set up in inches? (Guesstimate)
Thanks,
Saille

[JWSR]

You can see and read the description in Irwin's enclosure pic here:
http://bluetongueskinks.net/forum/album ... ic_id=3915
Both his and Bindi's cages are Identical.

[Tyler]

I only use 1 light. It is a 100 watt incandescent light bulb.

[NomadOfTheHills]

There are incandescents for heat, and flouresants for UVB, and mercury vapors for both combined.

I just use a heat lamp.

[SailleSkinklover]

Hey, thanks for the responses!

OK, so for those of you with a less elaborate setup, say using only an incandescent bulb, or only heat, do you worry about your skink getting any or enough UVB exposure for proper calcium absorption?

I ask because my current cage for Chuff has only one option for a light bub. When it got pretty cold here last couple of weeks or so, Chuff would sleep for days on end, and I though he was going into brumation. I got worried about his lack of apppetite and sleeping all the time, so I put a 50 watt basking bulb in there, and he perked up. It put his basking rock at a perfect temp, about 98 degrees. I don't have any other heat source because the whole cage is wood except for the sliding glass front doors. It gets nice and cozy in there, about 85-86 on the cool side, and like I said, about 98-100 degrees on his rock.
What I am doing is once its nice and warm in his cage, I feed him and then swap out the 50 W basking bulb with the Repti-Glow 13 W 2.0 UVB bulb for the rest of the day. ( His cage stays quite cozy, then cools to house temps at night, about 69-70 degrees)

I just want to make sure that he will be ok for the winter months coming up, as we are supposed to have a colder and wetter ( good for snowboarding!) winter than usual.
Any suggestions?

[Tyler]

Hey, thanks for the responses!

OK, so for those of you with a less elaborate setup, say using only an incandescent bulb, or only heat, do you worry about your skink getting any or enough UVB exposure for proper calcium absorption?

Nope, i supplement his food about every third feeding with miner-all.

[kris21]

You could get one of those 2 in 1 globles, that way its covering his heat and UV needs. Some say they are expensive but i found its about the same as buying the 2 seperate lights anyway.

Kris

[NomadOfTheHills]

I would think heat is more important than UVB, although there are numerous opinions out there. I supplement d3 in the diet with both powder and indirectly, through mice.

Just to let you know, the 2.0's produce basically no UVB.

[Leigh]

I agree with nomad, 2.0 = only 2% of the total light output from the lamp is UVB, its not enough to give a decent amount {if needed}

[Fatal_S]

I have both a ceramic heat emitter and a UVB/light bulb. The CHE is less than 6 inches from the basking rock, and it's 100w, but the way it's set up keeps the tank at great tempuratures.

[JWSR]

I'm going to attempt to break this subject down to an easy to grasp understanding of the differences between heat and light, incandescent light and ultraviolet B, calcium and vitamin D3, calcium absorption and synthesis of vitamin D3. All these elements form a physiological chain of events that are necessary for the healthy development and life of a thermoregulating reptile.

Incandescent light is fine for day/night cycles, and for heat for digestion. In digestion, calcium must be absorbed for bone development and strength. To absorb calcium, vitamin D3 is needed. To get vitamin D3, the animal must synthesise it. To synthesise D3, ultraviolet B light is required; REQUIRED, A MUST, not an option. If you don't want to spend the money on a UVB tube, then at least supplement the diet with calcium with added D3. Not plain calcium, because without the D3, the calcium's not going anywhere.

Like the "fire triangle," as an example. Heat, fuel, and oxygen are all required to create a fire. Take away any one of these elements, and it's impossible to have fire. Take away any of the elements or processes in the first paragraph, from your skink, BD, or whatever lizard you're providing for, and you will have a short lived animal.

These are things you can't see happening inside, but they are happening. You can see the symtoms however; lethargy, lack of appetite, constantly staying in the hot or cool side of the cage, regurgitation, and even difficult sheds.

The usual inexperienced response to these symptoms is to put in a higher or lower watt light bulb, not considering the metabolism process going on inside the animal.

I simply can't understand why, when it is so simple, nowadays, to provide properly for these creatures, that so many choose to take shortcuts just to save a few bucks. Or why it seems no-one wants to expand their knowlege by doing some reading on general herpetology to get a better understanding of the metabolism of these animals, and whats required to make their life a healthy one. Though diet may vary slightly, the process is the same, whether it's an iguana, bearde dragon, or a BTS.

It seems my enclosure has been labeled "elaborate." It's not elaborate at all. It's basic, very basic, just proper heat,light, and day/night cycles. All kept regulated with a thermostat and digital timer. Couldn't be simpler. And yet, I'm still nowhere near the range of choices the animal would have in it's natural environment. But I am as close as can be achieved, which is what we should be striving for. Well, then you'll probably say, "But, these animals have never lived in the wild." True; but their requirements are in their DNA, not where they were born or have lived.

Tyler...........I have a question for you:
Regarding UVB, you say, "Nope, i supplement his food about every third feeding with miner-all."

Here's the ingredients of "Minerall"


I see calcium on the list..........I don't see vitamin D3. You have no UVB light, and you don't supplement with D3. So tell me, how does your bluey absorb calcium?? He doesn't. He either has to synthesise D3, (and without UVB, that's impossible) or it has to be provided dietarily, and you don't do that. So, you could feed him a tablespoon of calcium a day, and it's not doing his bones a bit of good.

Keep in mind, I am talking long term effects here. You won't notice severe problems early on in days, weeks, months. But over the years you'll see the effects of insufficiant calcium absorption in MBD, along with a shortened lifespan. And, if you're feeding mice or any rodents to a non-carnivore skink to get the D3 from the liver of the rodent, it's not enough. Snakes get by with it because they don't have articulated joints. And, if you fed enough mice to get the D3 needed, you'll probably cut your skinks lifespan in half with fatty liver disease. The only time pinkies or fuzzies would be appropriate is for a gravid female, to help keep up her fat stores while gravid. And even then, just occassionally.

People should read more than just opinions on a forum. Read actual studies on topics you have questions about. Those written by reputable herpetologists, and herp DVM's. Here's one to start with by Dr. Matthew Wheelock DVM., regarding UVB, D3 synthesis, and calcium.

http://www.chameleonnews.com/calcium.html

I don't usually like to muddle people's opinions and guesswork with facts. But I see so much unsubstantiated information being passed around as fact, I feel, for the sake of the animal involved, I can at least attempt to point people in the right direction.

Jerry

[SailleSkinklover]

Great info, Thank you!
so JWSR, why do you find the need for the 15 W Flourescent with all the other lighting you have? (Just curious?)
I read the article you posted the link for on the chameleons, and I know that they are extremely delicate animals to keep and really are for the more advanced herpetologists and enthusiasts. I wish that there were more written specifically on Blueys and how they handle D3 and calcium absorption, but I do know that they are far sturdier than chameleons. (This does not at all meant that I think they shouldn't have proper care or lighting, by the way!!!)
I am concerned about burning out his eyes with too much, I don't want what happened to Hijink's Ping to happen to Chuffalumps, so I went with a mellower UVB bulb.

Chuff's bones look great from the xrays my vet took when I brought him in for check up. His current cage is a much better temporary set up so he could have the space and hides ( its so much better than the 20 gallon he was given to me in!)once he was clear of all parasites.
He gets outdoors in the yard time when the temps allow for it for at least 40 minutes, which, as its Oct, probably won't be happening much more until spring. (unless we have a weird warm spell, which we did over the weekend, WOHOOO.)
So my main concern is the winter months. I'm hoping to find a cheap/discounted version of the perfect cage I want at the Reptile Expo on Saturday, but if not, I'll have it made anyway and just have to wait a couple weeks for delivery.

I guess my point is, (and the chameleon artical stated this as well) there are soooo many different opinions from successful breeders/keepers, that it is at times very difficult to pick through it all. I just wanted to go with what might be best for my guy, and that might actually be a different set up than what some other people have. I just wondered if there was a basic standard.
Thanks, everybody!

[NomadOfTheHills]

Nice post.

Just to point out also, a diet that includes mice, or bones in general, offers another source of d3.

I don't use UVB lighting, but I feed mice occasionally, and suppliment with Repcal w/ D3.

[Hijinks]

Great info, Thank you!
I am concerned about burning out his eyes with too much, I don't want what happened to Hijink's Ping to happen to Chuffalumps, so I went with a mellower UVB bulb.

My experience should not deter anyone from using a UVB light.

What happened to my skink is a fluke. It occurred because the bulb -- a bulb relatively new to the market -- was faulty. It was not a case of simply "too much UVB"; it emitted low wavelength light in proportions that do not exist in nature. http://uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosph ... tm#spectra

It will not happen to you if you use a tried and true, proven bulb in accordance with the manufacturer's specs. Once again, it was a ReptiSun 10.0 compact fluorescent. I am now using a ReptiSun 10.0 tube, unfiltered, with no problems.

[SailleSkinklover]

Cool, no compacts for Chuffers!
Just need to figure out how to mount a tube light in his enclosure then.

[JWSR]

Nice post.

Just to point out also, a diet that includes mice, or bones in general, offers another source of d3.

I don't use UVB lighting, but I feed mice occasionally, and suppliment with Repcal w/ D3.

Thanks.
The bones in the mammal provide ablolutely no D3. The bones are a source of calcium. D3 is obtained from the liver of the mammal. I use RepCal Ultra fine w/D3 also.

Saille,
The small spiral light is just a little extra light in such a long cage. And I was just pointing out the bare basics for that one part of their metabolism. It just seemed like there is always so much confusion over simple heat and light and the roles they play. Any way they're set up is fine, as long as they're performing the role they're meant for. And no, I've never used a compcct UVB, and wouldn't, I've been using the tube 10.0 since it first came out. I personally prefer accuracy and simplicity. Ceramic heating elements last 5-6 years, light bulbs don't. And they put out a more even heat. The more stable the animals environment stays, the healthier and less stressed he or she's going to be.

My personal set-up is not only designed to keep the cages 100% stable, but also designed for me. I am disabled, and if I had to be constantly getting up and down juggling light bulbs, adjusting temperatures, and turning lights on and off, I wouldn't be able to provide for these great pets the way I do. So, for me, these $230 Herpstat thermostats (which may seem like a high price) have more than paid for themselves. I know they're not for everybody, but I couldn't do without them.

Best to all,
Jerry

[SailleSkinklover]

That makes sense, Jerry! I usse the same ultrafine RepCal with D3 that you use as well, by the way.

[NomadOfTheHills]

The bones in the mammal provide ablolutely no D3. The bones are a source of calcium. D3 is obtained from the liver of the mammal. I use RepCal Ultra fine w/D3 also.

Interesting. FOr some reason I always thought it was in the bones, but some google searches have shown otherwise, inspired by your post.

I guess I just assumed the d3 came from the bones of animals beacuse that is where it is used....

Liver makes perfect sense though. Oh well, at least mice have livers so I wasn't all wrong lol...

[Zach]

Livers the size of a pea!

And there are mixed opinions on whether mice supply any real calcium...most mice fed to blueys aren't big by any means and many insist that since the bones are tiny and still developing there is no real calcium to benefit from...

[herp boy]

What i did when i gave homer a pinky my did not eat was hevly dusted it in calcium