Tail and head biting

[Blotch]

I put my female Eastern (without the foot) into LILs (male Blotchie), tank.

After about 5 mins, lil grabs hold of her tail, she bolts, he lets go.
A couple mins after that, he grabs her head, then lets go.
then after a couple more minutes he grabs her tail again, and now he's sniffing her vent and always near her.

Sound like breeding activity to you?

It's very simmilar to when They first tried to breed, however he was more about the head back then. There's no real dmage to her. I think his biting is fairly light in comparison to past attempts, but there has been no biting behind the front legs.

Any thoughts?

[Geoff Gates]

I put my female Eastern (without the foot) into LILs (male Blotchie), tank.

After about 5 mins, lil grabs hold of her tail, she bolts, he lets go.
A couple mins after that, he grabs her head, then lets go.
then after a couple more minutes he grabs her tail again, and now he's sniffing her vent and always near her.

Sound like breeding activity to you?

It's very simmilar to when They first tried to breed, however he was more about the head back then. There's no real dmage to her. I think his biting is fairly light in comparison to past attempts, but there has been no biting behind the front legs.

Any thoughts?

Territorial activity yes.... breeding behaviour no.

[Scotts1au]

In early, mid Spring the males will start nuzzling and harassing the prospective females - most often the female will start running away, starting a silly dance of clinging on and dragging - sometimes the female will just keep going with a male attached but sooner or later they'le stop in the midst of huffing and puffing from the female.

This can go on for some time with endless circling around the cage - lots of rapid head jerks etc from the male. It can sound a bit rough - the sound of jaws on scales, the females can get a bit scuffed up and they do get bites to the head.

Normally you'lle see the male approach the female from behind.

I suspect that Lil was upset from having someone put an Eastern in his enclosure.

Scott

[Blotch]

hahaha - see I'm unsure with Lil. He did simillar things when he attempted to mate with her when i originally put them together. There's no scuff marks, and when he grabbed her on the tail he was trying to pull her back to him.

[SailleSkinklover]

Have you tried them on neutral territory, like the living room floor oro the outdoor pit?

[Blotch]

nah, I haven't. When these guys go at it I always wonder. Lil tends to be over aggressive with mating - and pretty much bites where he can - hence why I was wondering what yall thought.

[Geoff Gates]

nah, I haven't. When these guys go at it I always wonder. Lil tends to be over aggressive with mating - and pretty much bites where he can - hence why I was wondering what yall thought.

I've watched many (blotchie) matings in an outdoor pit and i have never seen a male intent on mating bite the female on the tail. They will always attempt to grab on the back behind the shoulder girdle, sometimes the female moves or they miss and they end up grabbing lower on the body.

I've also watched squirmishes, territorial disputes and females rebuffing suitors. Then they will bite just about anywhere but usually the lower back or tail of the retreating bluey who will sometimes turn and bite the attacker on the head.

I did own a large female (now deceased) who would attack a blind male relentlessly and I've seen her chase him back and forth in a pit 25 feet long. The end result was that I had to permamently remove him from the pit.

What do you mean by 'over aggressive with mating' ...its nearly always a violent act.

I also don't understand why you would expect mating activity/signals in Febuary. The female will not be ovulating and the male would have lost turgidity of the testes.

[Blotch]

well, By Over aggressive I mean - he always goes to get a hold on the head rather than the upper body. He's also done the tail bitiing thing before - however this time he didn't attempt to get a proper hold.

I don't "expect" mating activity - just suspect it's possible due to Lil still dropping plugs, and the fact that they are inside. He attempted to breed with her around this time when they last encountered each other.

[aggiegirl]

I have an 06 Northern that I've never seen sperm plugs from and whose sex is unknown. I have an 07 Northern male (sperm plugs seen multiple times) who has interacted well with her since I got him. They were out with one another daily (supervised, outside) until she decided to brumate---so now he gets out solo. I took both of them out the other day (for pictures for a project) and while I was photographing my sleepy adult, he RAN over to her(?) and latched onto the upper portion of her front leg. I thumped him and he had no intention of letting go. I finally pried his mouth open to release her. As a relative newbie, I was shocked with the ferocity of the attack. My adult bluey didn't really respond but she did decide to slowly retreat once he was removed.
So, does this do anything to indicate my unknown adult's sex? Is this any kind of predictor for their future relationship? They are housed separately but they have always roamed together without incident. I know you can't guarantee any of this but my curiosity is peaked!
Sorry to piggyback but ya'll have had some great responses!

[Blotch]

umm from thatr description I'd say more info needed. It could've been a breeding attempt - but sounds like an act of aggression. pay attention to the proposed female when it goes poopy. see if you can see the hemipenes come out.

[Geoff Gates]

well, By Over aggressive I mean - he always goes to get a hold on the head rather than the upper body. He's also done the tail bitiing thing before - however this time he didn't attempt to get a proper hold.

I don't "expect" mating activity - just suspect it's possible due to Lil still dropping plugs, and the fact that they are inside. He attempted to breed with her around this time when they last encountered each other.

Blotch,

You go against nature and you'll always be pushing the proverbial uphill.

Get your outdoor pit. put 'em in there before it's late Autumn, let 'em have a sleep and if you have males and females next Spring nature will take care of everything for you.

[Blotch]

yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. I'll check the trading post for any above ground pool surrounds.

Do you have much to do with your blueys with them being outside Geoff?

[Geoff Gates]

Do you have much to do with your blueys with them being outside Geoff?

Yep, I often sit with them inside the pit and have morning tea with them.

The local kids collect snails and they all get to feed them by hand.
All the kids (except for one) have now been bitten. He, all of 2 3/4 years of age brags about how good he is at not being bitten.

When they are active I check on them everyday. During brumation I make sure they are OK about once a week. Checking that they are in the same spot (often they move) & that they are dry and ensuring water is available.

Other than that I let them be and rarely pick them up except for a bi-annual health check & worm. Though I weigh gravid females weekly to get a feel for how many babies she might have.

Here's a pick of a keen young herper and a few of my lowland blotchies (note my toddler son standing by the pit in the background)

[Blotch]

That's great that you still associate with them. Do you prefer Alpines to Lowlands or the opposite?

Only problem I face is having 7 males in the one area. 2 of them would definately cause havok in amongst them all, if they weren't in there - I wouldn't worry as much. I could leave the blotchies inside and put the easterns out there. I'm actually thinking about building an outdoor enclosure that can be moved. So what to build is really on the mind lately.

[Geoff Gates]

That's great that you still associate with them. Do you prefer Alpines to Lowlands or the opposite?

Only problem I face is having 7 males in the one area. 2 of them would definately cause havok in amongst them all, if they weren't in there - I wouldn't worry as much. I could leave the blotchies inside and put the easterns out there. I'm actually thinking about building an outdoor enclosure that can be moved. So what to build is really on the mind lately.

I don't have a preference... a pet bluey is a pet bluey... they all have their own personality. Though I do think that the blotchies from the blue mountains region are the most beautiful of the blue-tongue species.

The way you get round the problem with the males is either;-

Set up smaller pits for subordinate males (I call them batchelor pads) or put them back indoors.
If the pit is big enough you will only need to do that during the breeding season. Let the males decide for themselves who is top dog then remove the others from the pit and leave the top guy(s) with the females.

I would only do that if the subordinates are getting constantly beaten up - a good sign is constantly burrowed in the leaf litter.

The same goes for the females, they will do the same thing if they have had enough of the males attention. If that is the case remove the female from the pit. either back inside or a smaller pit of her own until mid Dec'.

Usually from Dec onwards there is only the occassional squirmish.

[Scotts1au]

Hi Geoff

You mention worming - how to do you go about this? Have you had a diagnosed problem with this?, or is it precautionary?

Thanks

Scott

[Richard.C]

hi blotch,ltns,lol,id definatly say not breeding attempts,my males always grab the shoulder area when an attempt to mate is in order,never the head or tail area,although when males have ago at each other,they usually go the head or tail region,something to consider there,also its a smidge late for them to be mating now,but not impossable i guess,i agree with geoff comments,as i keep my lot outdoors to,so notice similar behaviour,also i have mostly male blotchys,probably like 3 males to every female,they bite each other for around 3 weeks during the mating season,then the rest of the time they are fine,only injury bar for the odd bite mark has been the largest lowlands male got 3 toes bitten off by a small male,in regards to alpines and lowlands,there both great,i keep mine seperated,there the same thing just different colorwise,behaviour wise exactly the same

[Geoff Gates]

Hi Geoff

You mention worming - how to do you go about this? Have you had a diagnosed problem with this?, or is it precautionary?

Thanks

Scott

Just precautionary as i feed my collection a lot of snails & bugs.

A vet gave me a huge supply of Panacur & syringes (so I could treat the whole collection when i felt like it) and showed me how to do it. If ever their weight drops off for no apparent reason I treat them for intestinal parasites.

[Blotch]

Richard - Thanks for dropping in on this one! Most appreciated. In regards to the head biting thing - I've actually seen LIL (male Blotchie) try to mate with the Eastern female by grabbing her head. I'm not sure why, hence why I said he's overly aggressive. In regards to the tail biting - I didn't think it was him trying to mate with her - but maybe him trying to pull her back to get a hold? He has done that once before.

The first time he tried to mate with the eastern - she was VERY badly scuffed up on the head. Her shoulder area was relatively untouched in comparison. But it was certainly breeding behaviour as he locked on, spun himself underneath her, scratched the top of the tail and popped out his hemipenes. This time however - the only real difference was he didn't get a hold, a tad more attention to him pulling on the tail, and the fact it didn't last long cuz I pulled her out pretty much straight away.

I've seen Lil attack other males, and the head biting is very simillar, but with this eastern he likes to grab her head and try to mate. otherwise he pretty much leaves her be if they are near.

[Richard.C]

head biting is a sign of aggression in my books mate,i find that when males want to mate,they do there darndest to grab around the shoulder region,if not there its usually lower as the female trys to run,also why u tryin to cross easterns and blotchys for,get your self some female blotcheds mate,there are lots available and your more likely to have success,plus im not a fan of the crossing of different species,why mess with whats perfect in the first place