mites

[Lettie]

We (my son and I) are new blue tongue owners. I think that our lovely skink has mites. We have seen small (smaller than a pin head) creatures in various colours - red, black and white, crawling on her scales (no lifted scales though). The exotic pet vet here recommended using a substance which is 20% carbaryl and 0.2% permethrin, but I understand from your care sheet that both of these are neurotoxins. I live in Israel and do not think that we can get Reptile relief here, but I would like to know what is its active ingredient, maybe we have something similar. Any other suggestions gratefully recieved. Also, Do I have to change all the bedding, or can I treat that too??

[Richard.C]

best to get rid of your substrate,im not sure what products u have for treatment over there,in australia we have an areosol can cant think of the name i will find out or i use a product called orange medic hair lice treatment,diluted with water that works a treat on blueys as well

[SailleSkinklover]

I don't know what chemicals you have to get rid of the mites, but keep your bluey on newspaper/papertowel substrate until they are gone, its easy to clean daily then.

Good luck!

[Herptiles.net]

See Melissa Kaplan's article for how to treat the environment to get rid of all of the mites and their eggs and larvae: http://www.anapsid.org/mites.html#enviro

Definitely clean out all of the old substrate, trash it, and replace it with something like paper towels or newsprint for now. It is easier to replace and to see any mites on. You might need to throw out some cage furnitire, too, if it is very porous (like volcanic rock) or like a piece of wood that has lots of cracks and crevices (or you can bake these items to kill the mites).

As far as treatment goes, drugs that are known to be safe for skinks include pyrethroids (synthetic pyrethrins that include permethrin), but it must be used carefully. Provent-a-Mite is one of these, and it works well. The product it to be applied to the animal, then immediately rinsed off. This exposure time is enough to kill the parasites, and reduces the amount that the animal absorbs into its body. Intoxication can occur in seriously debilitated animals, or if the exposure time is too long. Clinical signs can occur in as little as 15 minutes, and include loss of coordination, inability to right itself and excessive salivation. If these signs occur the animal needs immediate veterinary attention.

Reptile Relief is an "all natural" product that contains docusate sodium and a castor bean derivative. I've heard good things about it so far.

Ivermectin is also commonly prescribed to snakes and lizards as a topical medication, but it is toxic to skinks and chelonians (turtles and tortoises).

[Helikaon]

ivermectin is not toxic used topically in skinks, you are very correct about the chelonians though

the treatment of ivermec is 5mg into 1 litre of water then sprayed on the animal though i rather use a cloth to wipe it on the animal avoiding orifices. i personally would not use systemic ivermec on a skink to risky for just a mite treatment.

[Usersafe]

See Melissa Kaplan's article for how to treat the environment to get rid of all of the mites and their eggs and larvae: http://www.anapsid.org/mites.html#enviro

Definitely clean out all of the old substrate, trash it, and replace it with something like paper towels or newsprint for now. It is easier to replace and to see any mites on. You might need to throw out some cage furnitire, too, if it is very porous (like volcanic rock) or like a piece of wood that has lots of cracks and crevices (or you can bake these items to kill the mites).

As far as treatment goes, drugs that are known to be safe for skinks include pyrethroids (synthetic pyrethrins that include permethrin), but it must be used carefully. Provent-a-Mite is one of these, and it works well. The product it to be applied to the animal, then immediately rinsed off. This exposure time is enough to kill the parasites, and reduces the amount that the animal absorbs into its body. Intoxication can occur in seriously debilitated animals, or if the exposure time is too long. Clinical signs can occur in as little as 15 minutes, and include loss of coordination, inability to right itself and excessive salivation. If these signs occur the animal needs immediate veterinary attention.

Reptile Relief is an "all natural" product that contains docusate sodium and a castor bean derivative. I've heard good things about it so far.

Ivermectin is also commonly prescribed to snakes and lizards as a topical medication, but it is toxic to skinks and chelonians (turtles and tortoises).

Yet if you read farther down the page on Melissa's site, you find the following parapgrah,

" A Note On "Natural" Insecticides: The Pythrethoids
Touted as being "natural" due to their being derived from feverfew and chrysanthemums, pyrethroids cause the same neuroendocrine damage that organophosphates do.. "Natural" pesticide products can not be assumed to be safer or healthier than man-made chemicals just because they are derived from plants. For more information, see Pyrethroids: Not as safe as you think."

Who claims that "drugs that are known to be safe for skinks include pyrethroids (synthetic pyrethrins that include permethrin)"?

Steve

[shingleback aus]

i just use mite spray avoiding eye and mouth contact and my blueys are free of mites

[PsyKoViggy]

Can you use vaseline?
I'v heard of reptile shops using it on reptiles they were unsure of using chemicals on.. because it just suffocates the mites and then you can wash it off.
Could be wrong, but just a though.

[Leigh]

I've heard the same about Vaseline,its keeping on the bluey and not every where else is the problem.

On the other options topic,I suggested using teatree oil,did any of you Aussies try that, and did it work?

[Scotts1au]

Shingle what mite spray you got? Active ingredient?

[shingleback aus]

Shingle what mite spray you got? Active ingredient?

its called reptile science mite spray and yes it is an active ingrediant why??

[Blotch]

I think scott means What is the Active ingredient.

[Scotts1au]

The active ingredients are Piperonyl butoxide (a synergist) and Permethrin.

My point was that it is so commonly used, highly effective and problems are relatively few and far between from what I've been able to research - I'm wondering why so demonised. I highly suspect that any problems are normally user induced.

Yeh I'd use a natural solution if there was one readily available.

Scott

[Blotch]

I wonder if Vinegar would work? Works for ticks apparently.

[Scotts1au]

I think this is one of the beauties of synthetic pyrethroids like in Top of Descent and Perm based products - how rapidly they kill the baddies - they fall off stone dead before they have a chance to disgorge their stomach contents with potentially toxic shock consequences for the animal.

I'd hestitate to use something that might aggrevate ticks/mites etc if it wasn't proven to kill them quickly. My same thoughts go to Tea Tree oil, Euc Oil and other stuff.

Might be worth getting some ticks and testing it out.

Just my thoughts.

[shingleback aus]

The active ingredients are Piperonyl butoxide (a synergist) and Permethrin.

My point was that it is so commonly used, highly effective and problems are relatively few and far between from what I've been able to research - I'm wondering why so demonised. I highly suspect that any problems are normally user induced.

Yeh I'd use a natural solution if there was one readily available.

Scott

yep it contains all of the above, i would also prefer a more natural alternative

[Lucifer_Spades]

The active ingredients are Piperonyl butoxide (a synergist) and Permethrin.

My point was that it is so commonly used, highly effective and problems are relatively few and far between from what I've been able to research - I'm wondering why so demonised. I highly suspect that any problems are normally user induced.

Yeh I'd use a natural solution if there was one readily available.

Scott

Have it be your pet that happens to be a statistic and you'd be wary of using it anymore...

I've never dealt with mites so I don't know what I'd do.

[Scotts1au]

I'm wary of using any of this stuff, the problem is the people who aren't, use it improperly and then try to make a case against the product.

Darn lies and statistics.

You can make stuff idiot proof but they just keep building better idiots

I've got a bee in my bonet about it at the moment obviously cos one of my enclosures has had mites recently. No sign of them at the moment but bracing myself.

[Herptiles.net]

Yet if you read farther down the page on Melissa's site, you find the following parapgrah,

" A Note On "Natural" Insecticides: The Pythrethoids
Touted as being "natural" due to their being derived from feverfew and chrysanthemums, pyrethroids cause the same neuroendocrine damage that organophosphates do.. "Natural" pesticide products can not be assumed to be safer or healthier than man-made chemicals just because they are derived from plants. For more information, see Pyrethroids: Not as safe as you think."

Actually, while Ms. Kaplan's information on eradicating mites from the environment is very helpful, the information above is a bit misleading.

Pyrethroids are not derived from plants. Pyrethroids are synthetic compounds made in a laboratory that chemically resemble pyrethrins, which are the compounds derived from plant tissues like chrysanthemums.

"Natural" versus "unnatural" arguments aside, any drug is toxic at the wrong dosage. If you are uncertain of the usage of any drug, including acaricides and insecticides, consult your veterinarian.

Pyrethroids are effective and safe if used properly (Mader, Reptile Medicine and Surgery, 2006) [the bible of herp medicine- this is a very authoritative reference]. Toxicity occurs most often when:
-Dosage is too high (doses differ for different pyrethroids)
-Prolonged period of contact (especially in a non-ventilated area)
-Oil-based carrier instead of water based
-Very weak and debilitated patient (that should be receiving veterinary attention, not home remedies)
-Use of a product that also contains synergisticsparasiticides, or insect growth inhibitors
-Repeated use of a product

All of the above are contraindicated methods with reptiles. If you do your research well or contact your herp vet, the above would be known. We take precautions with all drugs, it just seems that when the effects of toxicity are worse, people tend to notice more when they screw up the treatment and harm the animal. Or they just make a bigger publicity about it.

To quote my pharmacology/toxicoloy prof: "Water is fatal if you dose it incorrectly. Too much, and you drown."

Ivermectin and skinks: It is toxic if given parenterally (injected) or orally. My reference is from a formulary, the original reference is Boyer 1998 (Essentials of reptiles: a guide for practitionals), I don't have access to that actual paper. Klingenberg's Understanding Reptile Parasites also lists it as toxic to skinks by those routes. I've seen skinks listed with chelonians on the "no ivermectin" list at a conference, as well.

I haven't found any reference stating that it is toxic to skinks when applied topically, and considering the recommended dilution for topical ivermectin that's not surprising. I've used ivermectin topically with tons of herps (not turts/torts) with no ill effects.

Use it in the appropriate dilution and avoid accidental ingestion, you probably won't have any problems.

Vaseline, olive oil, vegetable oil, etc.: Meant to suffocate the mites and ticks. They breathe through structures called spiracles on the abdomen, so smothering them with oil effectively suffocates them. There's a running theory that suffocating the mites and ticks makes them "hyperventilate" in the blood, which can increase infection potential of hemoparasites that are commonly transmitted by mites and ticks (like trypanosomes and hemogregarines). I can't find a reference for this one, but it's not an uncommon theory, I've spoken with quite a few vets, parasitology profs and others that have heard of this and think it's feasible. Oils and petroleum jelly are also pretty messy, and not effective if you miss a spot. I've used it on small lizards before with no apparent ill effects.

Tea tree oil has mixed reviews, from what I've heard. It definitely has antibacterial and antifungal properties, but can also cause a contact dermatitis (but this may be related to exposure time, and this isn't confirmed in reptiles as far as I know). I've heard suspicions that it's carcinogenic (isn't everything?), but no ref for that. I think it's mode of action on acarids (mites/ticks) is suffocation like other oils... so it's just an expensive alternative to olive oil with a pungent odour and other possible unknown side effects.

[Usersafe]

Thanks Christina. That's good info.

Steve

I'll have to check out the Mader reference.