Maternal instincts - interesting behaviour

[Lauriek]

While I have yet to do a literature search on the subject of maternal instincts in bluetongues, does it exist or not, I have observed interesting behaviour of Barnum. She is very possessive of her 5 babies, who are now 7 weeks old. If she is near them and any of us attempt to pick them up, she will become very assertive and attempt to bite us. I am under the impression that bts do not have a neo cortex therefore should not/can not act 'maternally'.

[Fatal_S]

I recall Zach saying some of his skinks (Northerns?) were very protective moms, while others (IJs?) couldn't care less. Just something you could possibly search or ask him about.

[dsteamn]

Ray told me to be careful when I was reaching in to get the babies from Oscar Rose because she would turn and strike at me - to make sure I had some sore of barrier between us before I put my hand in. However, I found quite the opposite to be true. She never made a bad move and let me freely go in and out of the tank - even while she was delivering. After they were born, I moved them to a tank on the floor below hers. She would lay up top and watch them. When I put them together, she went around and checked each one out - even licked a few. Then I pulled her back out and put her back in her tank. Since then, she hasn't given them two glances. I decided it was time, so she's been put outisde in the enclosure now with Stubbs.

[Scotts1au]

Copped a couple of bites this year from my blotchie mums. There is definitely a protectiveness, not sure how long it lasts for. At least a day or two from my experience after birth.

[Jeff]

I only have experience with northerns, but with mine they vary from mom to mom. I'm not sure it is actually conciously protecting the babies though. It seems more like a hormone type thing that just makes some of them defensive. I have one that is vicious from about a week before giving birth, until about 2 weeks after. I also have a few that never get that way at all. I separate the babies from the mother immediately after they eat their yolk sacs so it seems unlikely that she would be trying to "protect" the babies after they havve been gone for 2 weeks.

[Alioop]

Typical man, blaming the hormones.

[critterguy]

I'd say that evolutionarily speaking the females are more defensive around this time to protect the babies-yes. But I agree with Jeff that I don't think they are truly defending the babies in the manner of something with a more developed parental instinct. With such animals once the babies are gone to defensive behavior tends to stop pretty quickly.

Keep in mind parental behavior does not necessarily mean that intelligence or compassion is behind it. Many invertebrates and fish are fiercely protective of their young. Anyone who's kept cichlids can attest to that.

[reaperreptiles]

I would have to agree. While any animal is carrying offspring they are generally pretty defensive from the intstict to naturally spread there genetics. The general instict to carry on there genetic line probably follows shorty after birth but once the mother knows the babies are all healthy and safe she loses this instict and carrys on. I would also assume that more handlable docile females (before becoming gravid) would be less likely to become more maternal than females who generally are a little more naturally defensive. But this is just an assumption.

[dsteamn]

I feel the same way. Ray had a male that would strike at the cage every time you got near him. He doesn't handle them and likes them to be feral so they will breed better. I told him if that was the pre-requisite, then Stubby didn't have a chance because he is such a baby. I'm not sure if their tameness has anything to do with the disposition of their babies, but from the time they were 3 hours old, only one has tried to strike, and that's the one that had to be revived. I'm so amazed at their gentleness, especially after handling so many babies at the pet store.

[critterguy]

It'd be interesting to figure how much of aggressive/defensive behavior is genetic and how much of it is environmental(i.e...can you actually tame skinks by handling them? Anecdotal reports seem to suggest this makes little difference though animals that are handled more are likely a lot more difficult to startle or alarm).

I wonder if their is any truth to handling curbing breeding behavior. That's not the first time I've heard that before(on another forum someone mentioned that she felt/observed her hand tamed tokays didn't breed as well as the ones she left alone...no numbers but interesting nonetheless). Was Stubbs pretty aggressive when it came to breeding your female?

[dsteamn]

No, actually he wasn't. First of all, he's a rescue and still has a lot of residual health problems. MBD got his spine and it is a bit twisted and riddled. He only has about 15% of his toes. His lower jaw was so soft when I got it you could actually bend it downwards like a baby bird's beak. He has to eat smaller more frequent meals too as his digestive track seems to be a bit different from my female's.

Ordinarily when they are together in the outside enclosure (12x18 feet), he walks very slowly in her direction but turns his head the other way when she looks at him. If he is in a hide she wants, she will nip (not to hurt - just to stalk) at his tail and he moves out of her way.

With all of that being said, he definitely came to alert when I put her in the enclosure to breed. His head came up very high and he ran over to her. She went limp and let him 'try to' have his way with her. But every time he would try and bite at her side, his jaw was so weak he could not hold her. He tried to move her into position but kept losing his grip. One time she was actually stepping in the direction he was trying to put her in like she was assisting. Then one time I had them together and he had been grabbing at her for about 10 minutes or so. She finally got tired of it and turned around and bit him (easily). He sprang for her and gave it everything he had to grab on, then flipped her backside up and did the deed.

I was able to handle them immediately before and after all three times they were together. They are both huge babies and have never bitten anyone. The only time he puffs is if he is in a deep sleep and you wake him up. She is 2 and I have only heard her puff a small handful of times.

[critterguy]

Interesting stuff-sounds like he did his best inspite of all his troubles! I've held my guy probably as much as or more than anyone else on here. He will still threaten to bite me if awoken from a nap prior to shedding. Once out of the cage he's totally tame. I wonder what is it that causes this in cage-out of cage behavior. Some people suggest it is territorial but i'm not sure. I even observed a rattlesnake that would rattle while in the cage but as soon as he was lifted over the rim stopped buzzing immediately.

[dsteamn]

Perhaps the same reason a dog will bark when someone is at the front door but as soon as they come it, it stops. Who knows what goes on in the mind of our animals?

[Jeff]

... He will still threaten to bite me if awoken from a nap prior to shedding. Once out of the cage he's totally tame. I wonder what is it that causes this in cage-out of cage behavior...

I certainly don't know for sure what is going on inside the animal's mind, but my assumption has always been that it is related to their instinctual fight/flight response. In the cage they are more or less cornered, and may feel that "flight" is not an option. If they do try to elude you while they are still in the cage, they are generally not displaying at the same time, it's one or the other.

I think once they are out of the cage they feel the possibility of flight is much more realistic, and I believe the most desirable option for most BTS. I also believe that outside the cage they are looking for a path to safety instead of preparing to fight for their life. They will either get to a safe place, or decide that they are safe enough where they are after a minute or two. Some skinks, especially babies, can still be easily startled out of the cage and will hiss/huff/display if they fear for their life.

If you have a BTS that is giving you a defensive behavior, try giving it an obvious path of escape and see if it takes it. I think almost every one of them will if they truly believe they can get away. It is very rare to find a BTS that would rather fight than run in the presence of what it perceives as danger.

[Katrina]

Really interesting observations, Jeff. I hadn't really thought about it before, but your explanation makes sense and match my observations.

I think that how tame they are is also based on individual at least as much as handling... some BTS just are naturally more relaxed and tame than others. Our first BTS, Kira, has been handled more than the rest (we handled a lot at first and now handled infrequently although interact with them quite a bit). Despite lots of frequent, gentle handling, lots of treats and minimal stress he is the most elusive and fearful blueys we have. Some of the others have been mistreated by others, been neglected, hardly cared for etc but they are more sociable and less afraid than Kira.

Of the seven, the two females are the most laidback and unafraid of all of them. Three of five males are unafraid but aren't quite as relaxed as the ladies and aren't as calm about being handled. Kira hates being seen, but once handled he is pretty relaxed. Rollie doesn't mind being out in the open all the time but gets very stressed when handled.

Any one else observe similar?

[critterguy]

That is a good hypothesis. With my male if he exhibits any such threat behavior and I go ahead and pick him up he is totally fine and tame outside the cage-so that kind of has me scratching my head a bit.

I've never seen displaying-just open mouth threatening to bite. I'd love to have one which would actually stick its tongue out in such a situation.

They will huff and run at the same time. When they are threatened by something they really perceive as a threat and have room to get away(as opposed to merely trying to avoid being picked up by crawling off), they will puff up their bodies and tilt them towards the threat as they run. Of course the animal is not thinking this-but it helps them look bigger to potential predators.

An interesting analogy to this is defense behavior in Phrynosoma(some of which have also been shown to aggressively defend their eggs). Encountering a rattlesnake will cause a flight response, whereas a coachwhip will cause a "shield" response(flattened side tilted towards predator).

[reaperreptiles]

It's definantly differs from animal to animal. My female will huff at me in her cage and when I initially take her out she will hand her tongue out the side of her mouth and huff, but once she knows she's out she calms down and explores. My (possible) male is very flighty, if i come into the room and he's out he will immediatly disappear into the subsrate. I went to pull him out one day to weigh him and he lightly struck at me, just a warning but I was very surprised. Even after gentle handling, treats and time out of the cage he is still very cautious and flighty. My female will hold her ground if she feels threatened, my male will turn and run. My first indo was very huffy and would lunge at me in his cage, but the moment he was out he was super sweet and gladly took treats. I think once a skink is settled into his environment, he becomes territorial and im sure some animals are not very territorial at all but from my experience (with skinks and monitors) they usually settle down once out of the cage. This would not pertain to babies who are very fearful, only long term adults who 'shouldn't' be fearful of humans anymore but show more territorial behaviours than fearful ones. Just a personal thought

[Katrina]

I might not have made my point very clear in my earlier post... Oops! While it does differ between animals, I was thinking that these individual 'personality' differences maybe more of a determining factor in how tame the skink is as compared to regular handling, interaction, 'taming' the skink etc. I was thinking of between two skinks of the same species. So their reaction in situations is not just learned or based on experiences.

[reaperreptiles]

i totally agree, my post was a little fuzzy. Im not sure, but i feel like most 'personalities' are actually developed inside the womb. Im not sure bc im not a scientist, but it seems like the personalitys of the parents are either passed down or mixed in some way. i.e. I hatched out some trans chameleons, about half of them looked and acted like the father while only a few acted like the mother while having her coloration, only 3 of the babies had distinct personalities that were almost a mix of the two parents. Genetically speaking you would think offspring with more of the mother or fathers genetic codes would have more personality traits from that parent. Genetics are pretty much the same in all species when it comes to passing them down and mixing and all that. I mean, I have more physical traits from my genetic father and my personality is identical. While my sister, who looks just like my mother has a personality more similiar to her. I will ask Stahl next time i visit him about reptile genetics and personality, seems to be an interesting topic to discuss. Now I also think that some of the personality is learned as soon as they are born, i.e. treatment from there siblings, behavoirs of there mother(even if they only spend an hour with there mother they are viewing her behavors) and treatment from humans. I also believe that babies that spend more time with there siblings will have stronger instincts as those who are separated early. The instinct to compete for food, shelter and water brings out a more instinctual personality in these animals as animals who dont have to deal with these conditions. Just some thoughts and some more info from my ealier post that was lacking...was in a hurry.

[El Lobo]

They will huff and run at the same time. When they are threatened by something they really perceive as a threat and have room to get away(as opposed to merely trying to avoid being picked up by crawling off), they will puff up their bodies and tilt them towards the threat as they run. Of course the animal is not thinking this-but it helps them look bigger to potential predators.

This is contrary to both my belief and observations. Blueys rarely track across open spaces whether in the wild or a pit environment, or even when outdoors out of their enclosures. Out of preference they will take a much longer route from A to B if there is cover available by that means. I also believe it is instinctive behaviour to inflate the body to give the impression of greater size as well as directly face a threat whilst huffing and lunging. My view is they also instinctively know they do not have speed to evade a predator or threat and know that flight will make them even more vulnerable. I have experienced the huffing and lunging defence behaviour with wild blotchies only a matter of a few hours old.