What Could Cause This?

[ILoveMyMonsters]

I already posted about Gauge (my beautiful Northern) in the general discussion board. A vet visit and x-ray later have shown a thickening in her spine (near her shoulder blades) - with concerns of the affected vertebrate potentially fusing - along with the loss of bone density in her pelvis. Birth defects and MBD are ruled out. The vet is consulting a herp specialist out of state because he can't give me a proper diagnosis - he hasn't seen something like this either. The bone density loss is significant from the x-rays . Poor baby...this is going to be a long couple of days

I have never heard of something like this. I researched BTSs religiously prior to getting Gauge, and never came across a disease like it. Has anybody out there ever heard of this or something like it? I'd like to have some idea of what I (and Gauge) could be up against.

Wish my sweet & sassy bluey girl luck!

[Bird_Brain]

I am very curious as to how MBD was ruled out? Any way to upload the xray on the forum?

IMO, the symptoms match up very well with it being MBD. If you do a search on google, you can find TONS of information about it. However, Id like to quote this one website I found:

In young animals or animals affected by MBD before maturity, several growth deformities are commonly noted:


A lower jaw shorter than the upper jaw, resulting in an underbite

Fibrous osteodystrophy—a condition in which fibrous tissue builds up along the cortices of long bones as the body attempts to stabilize the bone

Kyphosis—a side-to-side curvature of the spine

Scoliosis—a top-to-bottom curvature of the spine

Abnormal shell or beak growth in turtles.

Obviously the last symptom does not apply since we are not talking about turtles. In my non-veterinarian opinion, your skink is already displaying the first two symptoms (however, they too called it an underbite when really it is an overbite).

Other than radiographs, did the vet do any other tests? Did s/he determine if the mouth bones are soft by squeezing them? How about a blood test?

I do want to thank you for taking the skink to the vet! Good job!

[Bird_Brain]

Another website that has a lot of information is http://www.greenigsociety.org/mbd.htm

Once again, they mention the overbite and discuss lumps on the back. Also notice the placement of the lumps on these iguanas to the lump on your bts. From what I recall from your pictures, they appear to be in similar spots.

"As bones weaken, the body will attempt to strengthen them by laying down fibrous connective tissue at the points of strain"

"Breaks may result in twisted and crooked backs, toes and limbs."

[ILoveMyMonsters]

Gauge has had the overbite since I can remember. Mouth bones are normal. It was ruled out since it was already starting when I got her as a month-old hatchling. On top of that, she's been on calcium supplements for a month now, and is consistently fed an excellent diet with efficient sunlight and lighting. No fibrous tissue either. It's solid bone, and MBD doesn't explain the decreasing bone mass in her pelvis. I don't think it would be this severe considering how young she is....the pelvic damage is extensive. If I remember correctly, can't a BTS go for months and months with a bad diet and lighting before showing MBD symptoms?

[Katrina]

Good info Brad - that is interesting.

I didn't mean to imply that it couldn't be MBD because bluey can go for so long with poor diets etc. It just seemed to be that MBD was unlikely at three months, given that many can live in pet stores on a diet of crickets and seem to do fine. I haven't seen these kind of problems in a bluey so young, but that doesn't mean that it can't happen.

This is a very interesting topic and those are great links. It does seem that the symptoms match well - hopefully your vet or someone else will have a better idea of what it is. Calcium deficiency can result from a variety of things, not just not enough calcium - it could be too much phosphorus, oxalates etc. Thanks for posting this so that we can discuss and thanks for taking her to the vet. I'm sure we will learn from this.

[Bird_Brain]

loss of bone density is a BIG symptom of MBD. Overbites are a BIG symptom in YOUNG animals that have MBD. Lumps along the spine is a common symptom of MBD.

Id recommend a blood test to see what the levels come back at. This is another way to diagnose MBD.

Adult bts will be able to handle "months and months with bad diet and lighting" but when you have a growing animal that DEMANDS calcium as it is growing, IMO, MBD is very likely.

[El Lobo]

As stated in the article linked below, MBD is an umbrella term applied to several conditions. The most relevant paragraphs are reproduced below, but reading the whole article might give more insight as to what is occurring with Gauge.

Has your vet suggested blood tests to determine the level of phosphorous carried in the blood?

Fibrous osteodystrophy

A condition where calcium is mobilized from the bones. The reptiles’ body then forms a build up of tough fibrous tissue to try to reinforce the bone, in the absence of calcium. This is commonly seen in the jaw bones where the muscles continue to pull on the weakened bones, creating a distinctive bowed shape and in some species e.g Green iguanas it can create a rounded, juvenile appearance to the head. This affects the animal’s ability to feed and in advanced cases force feeding via a syringe is required. Areas of hard tissues that result from this condition may appear healthy e.g in the thigh or tail and the owner may well mistake it for muscle, whereas in truth the bones will be highly susceptible to fractures which may not be detected under the tissue layer.

Osteoporosis
This can be caused by dietary deficiencies (including protein deficiency) but also by lack of exercise e.g no climbing areas for arboreal lizards, inadequate floor space for terrestrial species and also if a limb has been attached to a splint due to a previous fracture. As in humans, it results in thinner, lighter bones due to less calcium being deposited in the bones than is reabsorbed into the blood.

Rickets
Affects young reptiles. Can result in severely bowed bones (especially the longer bones). Caused by inadequate calcium or vitamin D.

Osteomalacia

Lower bone density caused by decreased mineralization which is a result of improper calcium: phosphorous ratio. Results in softening of the bones.

Secondary nutritional hyperparathyroidism

Parathyroid hormone or PTH is a hormone that stimulates the bones to release calcium and phosphorous and also stimulates increased absorption of calcium in the digestive tract. This hormone is produced in greater quantities at low levels of serum calcium. Can cause the previous two conditions in young and adult reptiles respectively.

http://www.reptileexpert.org/metabolic-bone-disease/

[ILoveMyMonsters]

Dang this is frustrating....she is on a mega dose of calcium too. Not to mention top of the line everything else I give her. I feel like I'm doing something wrong and I don't know what now

[Bird_Brain]

Dang this is frustrating....she is on a mega dose of calcium too. Not to mention top of the line everything else I give her. I feel like I'm doing something wrong and I don't know what now

To be honest, I really may not be due to your care. Even if it is, no need to beat yourself up over it. While damage may not be able to be reversed, if it is MBD, you can stop it from progressing.

I know my posts my come by offensive. Please do not take them that way. We are all just trying to help and get to the bottom of this situation.

I know you have covered this previously, but ANY and ALL information in regards to the care of the skink could potentially prevent whatever is going on from progressing. Pictures would also be wonderful as we maybe able to identify a potential cause that you may be over looking.

Lastly, just like all other species of animals, some are just "weaker" than others. You maybe treating the skink like a queen, but if there is something genetically, physically, etc wrong, whatever you do may never be enough. Kinda the survival of the fittest in nature. Not all animals will live long happy lives, in captivity, we just better their chances.

[Katrina]

Dang this is frustrating....she is on a mega dose of calcium too. Not to mention top of the line everything else I give her. I feel like I'm doing something wrong and I don't know what now

Please don't feel bad!

Look at it this way - what is done, is done. All we can do now is move on. No one wants you to feel bad or to feel like you have done something wrong. It is very, very obvious from your actions and your posts that you care about Gauge and only want the best for her.

This is unfortunately, but it is an absolutely excellent learning opportunity. All we can do now is figure it out and learn from it. It might be something you inadvertently did or it might have nothing to do with your care.

Fatal_S on this forum had problems where the diet she fed resulted in health problems with her skinks. I am always so impressed because she is very honest about it - even though most wouldn't want to admit it (I know I wouldn't!) she openly talks about it and explains what happens and the result. Because of her sharing her experiences, we have all learned and the advice we give on feeding BTS has changed. My skinks and so many others are healthier because she shared her experiences. I am always so impressed by that, I have so much respect for her for sharing those experiences to help everyone learn.

[Fatal_S]

My issues were caused by lack of calcium, even when provided with UVB lighting. I'm totally guessing, but I'll throw out what I can think of.

It seems in your case either something is sapping the calcium before it can be used, or Gauge isn't using the calcium where it's needed? Is Gauge getting dog or cat food? Is there anything in the diet that's really high in phosphates or something? I can't remember if you're using D3/UVB? If Gauge has UVB, is it being blocked by anything (screen/glass) or does she bother to bask under it?

I know how frustrating it is. At the time I had no idea why it was happening. I'm hoping the specialist can give some good treatment options. Gauge is so lucky to have you.

[NomadOfTheHills]

What is your C:Pa ratio?

This could very well be a genetic disorder, considering most BTS can live in absolutely atrocious conditions and not develop classic MBD.

[Linnea]

um. everyone. i understand that we are talking about a skink here, but it occured to me that this kind of calcium problem is so very common among thumans and there are very accurately written information on it as well as treatments that can be used for lizards and humans alike.

since it seems to be an unusual problem in need of some extra help i find it more resourceful to look at it from the side that has more information/research available.

http://www.healingwithnutrition.com/odi ... rogen.html

take not of the top links as well as this article, about aging skeleton weakness. and the source can be questionable, but much of the content on the first section and the one about how to treat it further/causes are phrasing some things in a good way.

however sad it might sound, they all state that it is inreversible - but that you can stop if from progressing. just as the others have said.

look around while googling on calcium uptake and you will find even more articles, but focus on what everyone else already said since i just really wanted to open up this option a bit.....*hides*

[Scotts1au]

Sounds like MBD to me.

[Richard.C]

not sure what it is,but thought id chime in with this,young growing blueys are most at risk of mbd,especially if grown fast,and females who produce young are also susceptible,as the young,or eggs in other reptiles tax the female of her calcium,so if a female was low beforehand,theres chances it will affect any offspring she develops

seems odd to develop it so soon though to me,i dont supplement or provide uv for any of mine indoors and have never had mbd issues,thats with easterns,northerns,blotched,westerns,centralians or stumpies,some ive had for over 14 years now,also a number of egernia species

[Alioop]

seems odd to develop it so soon though to me,i dont supplement or provide uv for any of mine indoors and have never had mbd issues,thats with easterns,northerns,blotched,westerns,centralians or stumpies,some ive had for over 14 years now,also a number of egernia species

This is really interesting. It makes me think there must be something else going on in the skinks that develop mbd, something that makes them more susceptible or is preventing them from absorbing the calcium.

[ILoveMyMonsters]

Wow this post is still going on? I had forgotten I posted this .

I posted updates a while back on the general discussion. I last spoke with the vet on Friday, and they are not recommending any husbandry changes for her - at least not right now. They think she is showing signs of more than one potential MBD disease (wouldn't specify), so they don't know right now. Still. Although the specialist is supposedly looking into issues with calcium absorption (herditary disorder I would assume) since the pelvic damage is said to be rather "extensive" at such a young age.

I am receiving some conflicting information, so please bear that in mind.
Hopefully I will know something definite soon.