Herp Vet says never to feed skinks cat/dog food

[justyna.ewa]

So I took Igor to the vet for the first time since I have had him (about 3 weeks) and I was told that the diet I was feeding him (50% cat/dog pellets + snails or the occasional crickets or egg and 50% veggies with a little fruit) should be changed immediately because cat and dog food contains "too many minerals for a skink". Has anyone ever heard this from a herp vet before? I will obviously listen to her and switch to pinkies/snails/superworms for protein as she suggested, but I am just curious because I know a lot of people on this forum seem to use dog food frequently. Chicken and beef are apparently also no-no's.
I was also informed that as skinks age, you should decrease the amount of protein they are fed and feed them a larger percentage of veggies. Since Igor is at least 5, he should be eating a lot more veggies than meat.
I just wanted to share this information with everyone, in case it might be useful to someone.

[Jeff]

If I were you, I would find a new vet. It is common for vets to be misinformed about specific species of animals. While most should understand the anatomy and medical issues that arise in BTS, very few actually have much, if any real experience with BTS specifically.

You have to decide for yourself if you want to give more credibility to diet advice given by someone who read about it in 30 year old general reptile text books, or people who have been keeping BTS for decades and have actually tried every imaginable diet, including what your vet has suggested. The real-life experience has proven that there is no healthier diet for your BTS than one based on dog food.

[Fatal_S]

The more veggies than meat is correct. Babies need lots of protein as they grow, but lots of protein makes adults fat.

The dog/cat food part could be ignored. Dog food especially is an omnivorous diet that works great for BTS (with added greens/veggies to give a more adult-friendly diet. Of course insects and snails would make up their natural protein source, but it can be hard to provide a balanced diet using those. I'd love to provide more insects/snails for my guys, but I don't have the space to breed roaches & snails right now, and I can't get Mazuri insectivore-diet yet (working on it).

Basically, diet is something you don't want to mess up. Dog food w/ veggies is proven to work. If you're want to do lots of research and provide a more natural diet, fine, but don't screw up your skink just because a vet says something (vets know a lot about stuff, but may not know everything about specific issues).

I wouldn't go as far as finding a new vet. They're just using general knowledge. If they're jerks or don't know about actual relevant stuff, find a new one. If they just don't know everything about BTS, they can still be useful. I use 2 vets. 1 knows tons about medical issues, but is a jerkwad and disagrees with everything I do (housing/feeding/lighting). The other doesn't know as much, but is amazingly nice and always willing to learn and go above and beyond. So for simple stuff I use the nice vet, for major issues I trust the experienced vet.

[tylociraptor]

I will say this... don't use kibble. It's hard for skinks to chew something so hard, and they're large enough that they can choke. Use wet dog food. Wellness is a trusted brand, and is what I use.

Unless a vet has taken the extra schooling to be knowledgable in exotics, specifically reptiles, take everything they say about care with a grain of salt. Often, with exotic pets, the knowledge lies in the hands of the hobbiest. This is especially true in tarantulas, where much of the species specific research began with keepers.

People have learned about the care of reptiles based on educated guesses, extrapolation based on their natural habitat, and trial and error for many years. They continue to do so with newer species to the hobby (such as caiman lizards), but skinks have been fairly well established as pet reptiles- therefore their care guidelines have been as well.

The best argument for using dog food is that canines are omnivores, not obligate carnivores like cats, so the diet is balanced to that in mind. Like canines, Skinks are omnivores- while in the wild they would likely only eat invertibrates, very small animals, and carrion, in captivity we have the chance to give them the balance they would get themselves if they were able. Dog food gives them extra vitamins and minerals to keep them healthy, happy lizards.

I'll echo Mel in that I wouldn't nessicarily find an new vet if you are happy with the one you have, but just be aware that her or his knowledge of care may not be up to speed. I would explain to them that significant research has yeilded that dog food is the best protein source for captive skinks. I wonder if she expects that you are feeding pedigree or some other really bad food (and if you are, switch foods!) rather than a well balanced food like Wellness.

[Fatal_S]

I wonder if she expects that you are feeding pedigree or some other really bad food (and if you are, switch foods!) rather than a well balanced food like Wellness.

I feed Pedigree. As do many breeders with years more experience than me.

[tylociraptor]

In addition, I want to make this clear... I just re-read through your post and got a real red flag

Pinkie mice are almost devoid of nutrition and should be avoided as anything but a treat. They do have a good amount of calcium, but that is it. The protein they offer, in terms of reptiles, isn't even on par with other protein sources. Your best bet for insect food is dubia roaches, if you can find them (very hard to in Canada). Rat pups would be better as a food, but never as a staple, and honestly you'd probably have to chop up a rat pup for them, or at least cut off the head.

[tylociraptor]

I wonder if she expects that you are feeding pedigree or some other really bad food (and if you are, switch foods!) rather than a well balanced food like Wellness.

I feed Pedigree. As do many breeders with years more experience than me.

With how terrible Pedigree is for the intended species, I'd stay away from it! I stick with Wellness that has a good balance, and not a lot of filler grains and so on. :X If you have had success, that is good tho, but again, I personally wouldn't go within 100 feet of anything at the grocery store haha.

[Nae]

The best argument for using dog food is that canines are omnivores, not obligate carnivores like cats, so the diet is balanced to that in mind. Like canines, Skinks are omnivores- while in the wild they would likely only eat invertibrates, very small animals, and carrion, in captivity we have the chance to give them the balance they would get themselves if they were able. Dog food gives them extra vitamins and minerals to keep them healthy, happy lizards.

In the wild they eat a variety of carrion, insects, leaves, flowers - Vegetable matter actually makes up a large portion of their diet. They arent all that crash hot at hunting creatures like small mammals unless they are injured/very young, haha~ Just chucking that out there~

[Rhianimal]

I wonder if she expects that you are feeding pedigree or some other really bad food (and if you are, switch foods!) rather than a well balanced food like Wellness.

I feed Pedigree. As do many breeders with years more experience than me.

With how terrible Pedigree is for the intended species, I'd stay away from it! I stick with Wellness that has a good balance, and not a lot of filler grains and so on. :X If you have had success, that is good tho, but again, I personally wouldn't go within 100 feet of anything at the grocery store haha.

There's a halfway decent grocery store brand I will grab in a pinch, the Cesar kind. No grain fillers. very cheap. I bought a 12 pack of the food for $8 or so, and have it stashed as backup.

I would be wary of pedigree if only because of the food recalls that killed so many animals. They seem to recall food an awful lot.

[Jeff]

With how terrible Pedigree is for the intended species, I'd stay away from it! I stick with Wellness that has a good balance, and not a lot of filler grains and so on. :X If you have had success, that is good tho, but again, I personally wouldn't go within 100 feet of anything at the grocery store haha.

You are making the same type of mistake as the vet! You are choosing to ignore DECADES of experience in favor of your "theory" that Wellness is better. I honestly don't think it makes much difference which dog food we feed our skinks, but it is frustrating to hear people criticize a brand of food that has beeen proven to have as good results, if not better than any other. By the way, why would grains be bad for a bts?

[tylociraptor]

With how terrible Pedigree is for the intended species, I'd stay away from it! I stick with Wellness that has a good balance, and not a lot of filler grains and so on. :X If you have had success, that is good tho, but again, I personally wouldn't go within 100 feet of anything at the grocery store haha.

You are making the same type of mistake as the vet! You are choosing to ignore DECADES of experience in favor of your "theory" that Wellness is better. I honestly don't think it makes much difference which dog food we feed our skinks, but it is frustrating to hear people criticize a brand of food that has beeen proven to have as good results, if not better than any other. By the way, why would grains be bad for a bts?

I disagree. There is no theory here. I am making my desicion based on the fact that Pedigree, like many other grocery brands, has not only had several recalls, but is poorly balanced and full of filler. My issue is not that it has grains, mind you, but that it has too much of things like corn, grains, corn MEAL, and other very not nutritious foods, as well as the fact that it has had problems in the past and killed animals before because of poor quality control.

I feed dog food as a protein staple. If I'm going to feed something that isn't balanced, I'd be better off using flat out ground beef or turkey, rather than something that just isn't good.

The flat facts are that it's not good for dogs. It's like feeding your kid mc donalds every day. It's food, but it's not healthy food. If it's not good for dogs, I don't trust it to be good for skinks.

Please realize that I am very interested in animal nutrition, so I do my research about dog foods and cat foods, and pretty much any pre packaged food I am feeding my pets. My research has shown me that pedigree, iams, purina... they are all bad.

[Fatal_S]

With how terrible Pedigree is for the intended species, I'd stay away from it! I stick with Wellness that has a good balance, and not a lot of filler grains and so on. :X If you have had success, that is good tho, but again, I personally wouldn't go within 100 feet of anything at the grocery store haha.

You are making the same type of mistake as the vet! You are choosing to ignore DECADES of experience in favor of your "theory" that Wellness is better. I honestly don't think it makes much difference which dog food we feed our skinks, but it is frustrating to hear people criticize a brand of food that has beeen proven to have as good results, if not better than any other. By the way, why would grains be bad for a bts?

This ^

I am getting really, really sick of the "health-food" craze. There's so much BS about fillers, by-products, and grains being terrible. So many people feeding/eating diets with no input from nutritionists. This is all a gimmick from companies like Blue Buffalo to make you scared and so you follow along like sheep. Every health-related post gets disproven a few years later, after causing major damage to the people/animals who followed it. With so many of my skinks dead or dying after I followed fad-advice, I'm really hating to hear it passed off as the word-of-god now. I'm not trying to attack anyone here, I just hate this craze. /rant

[Rhianimal]

With how terrible Pedigree is for the intended species, I'd stay away from it! I stick with Wellness that has a good balance, and not a lot of filler grains and so on. :X If you have had success, that is good tho, but again, I personally wouldn't go within 100 feet of anything at the grocery store haha.

You are making the same type of mistake as the vet! You are choosing to ignore DECADES of experience in favor of your "theory" that Wellness is better. I honestly don't think it makes much difference which dog food we feed our skinks, but it is frustrating to hear people criticize a brand of food that has beeen proven to have as good results, if not better than any other. By the way, why would grains be bad for a bts?

Grains are difficult to digest, and the strain on the digestive system could lead to nutritional deficiencies or other issues in some animals. I don't know if this is true of BTS or if their digestive systems are long and hardy enough to deal with grains. That would be my concern. it seems to work for a lot of people.

I personally avoid the grain-filled foods because of issues in manufacturing. Too many recalls for products that end up being lethal for pets. Seems more typical with the filler-laden ones. I got into the habit when I kept rats, as they can have serious issues from some grains (more typical in dried kibble) and they're built to be grain-gobbling scavengers. I'm no expert.

[Jeff]

So during your research, have you kept hundreds of skinks for over 20 years and done controlled studies where different groups were fed either Pedigree dog food or other things so that you could compare the results? I know people who have.

Do what you want, but don't tell other people who have real-life experience that you know better because you read some labels.

[tylociraptor]

So during your research, have you kept hundreds of skinks for over 20 years and done controlled studies where different groups were fed either Pedigree dog food or other things so that you could compare the results? I know people who have.

Do what you want, but don't tell other people who have real-life experience that you know better because you read some labels.

At this point you are being rude, sarcastic and disrespectful. I don't know that I will continue to respond to you past this, due to that, nor that I will really take much interest in your words in future.

Pedigree and other dog foods made in the same way are the cause of obesity, health problems, and death in dogs that are fed it, due to the little care taken in quality control, poor ingredients, and poor nutrition. The fact that often, the meat used in these foods are from diseased animals that are veiwed unfit for human consumption is a big deal to me as well. I'm not talking food we cosmetically would choose not to eat, but meat that could seriously harm us, and COULD harm our dogs (and by relation, maybe even our skinks). This food also has carcinogens in it, and unhealthy preservatives. Any amount of research into dog foods would tell you this. I'm guessing someone picked some off the shelf, found it was cheap and worked okay, so continued to use it for skinks. Maybe there haven't been any problems yet. Doesn't mean there wont be if someone gets another contaminated batch.

I didn't tell anyone with "real life experience that know better" to do anything. I told Mel it's good it is working out for her, but that I personally avoid those foods. I told Justyn that Wellness is better, but I doubt that he or she has much more experience than I, basing in that they too are a new skink owner. I'm basing it off of my own research. I'm not about to tell someone who has had experience with it that they are wrong, but I am presenting that I would choose not to use it, and advise against it from a personal stand point based on my research and knowledge of dog food.

I would also like to tell you that I don't appreciate your "I am right because I have been in the hobby _____ years" attitude. New information always comes into play when it comes to keeping animals, and unless you have done any research into Wellness to find that it is HARMFUL to skinks (it isn't, from MY research), I see no reason for you to attack me. The attitude you are displaying is why there are folk out there who still think it is appropriate to beat or de-bark a dog, declaw a cat, and more on topic, feed captive snakes live food. Perhaps at the time that people started keeping skinks, Pedigree was considered a good food, or even WAS a good food, but the fact is that given the choices of far more nutritious, safe options, I will choose them over Pedigree any day.

[tylociraptor]

With how terrible Pedigree is for the intended species, I'd stay away from it! I stick with Wellness that has a good balance, and not a lot of filler grains and so on. :X If you have had success, that is good tho, but again, I personally wouldn't go within 100 feet of anything at the grocery store haha.

You are making the same type of mistake as the vet! You are choosing to ignore DECADES of experience in favor of your "theory" that Wellness is better. I honestly don't think it makes much difference which dog food we feed our skinks, but it is frustrating to hear people criticize a brand of food that has beeen proven to have as good results, if not better than any other. By the way, why would grains be bad for a bts?

This ^

I am getting really, really sick of the "health-food" craze. There's so much BS about fillers, by-products, and grains being terrible. So many people feeding/eating diets with no input from nutritionists. This is all a gimmick from companies like Blue Buffalo to make you scared and so you follow along like sheep. Every health-related post gets disproven a few years later, after causing major damage to the people/animals who followed it. With so many of my skinks dead or dying after I followed fad-advice, I'm really hating to hear it passed off as the word-of-god now. I'm not trying to attack anyone here, I just hate this craze. /rant

Mel, I am not following a fad, I am following actual research. While things like that pop up often in humans, people will go centuries thinking the same thing about animals- cats belong outside, dogs should be physically hit if they misbehave, and so on. Food is one of those things that stayed the same for a very long time, Between a balanced raw diet, a properly balanced healthy food, and a food like pedigree, the balanced healthy food is the affordable, healthy middle ground.

The fact is, people chose to give their animals less, or people produced worse foods, because they are 'just dogs', and 'just cats', and they dont need to eat as well as people. Today people are of the mind that as we are keeping these animals of our volition and not theirs, we owe them the best care we can give them. Instead of feeding the crap we wouldn't eat, that isn't nutritionally balanced or given the same quality assurance we expect of our own food, we feed them food that is much better, keeps them healthy, alive, and happy longer... and if it's a bandwagon to care about my pets and want only the best of them, consider me guilty.

[Fatal_S]

Again Ty, you are saying that Pedigree is not a nutritious, safe food, and that those of us who use it are playing with our skinks health and are behind the times. We use it because it's been proven. We're not saying don't use wellness, or insects, etc. We are saying that Pedigree is not evil and to please not tell people it is. The same way I'd ask this vet not to say dog food is evil. The vet has exactly the same reasons as you (they've done 'research' and are concerned about the animals) but that doesn't make them right, and the info they're/you're giving is tearing apart a KNOWN healthy food for BTS.

Someone did not 'find the cheapest thing and use it, and it hasn't killed the animal yet'. Someone did years upon years of trials, breeding animals, raising them on it, and keeping them to old, old ages. It is not dangerous, so please don't tell people it is. Obviously, you can use whatever, and recommend whatever, but be careful about stating your opinion (Pedrigree is bad for skinks) as truth, when you have no facts.

I feed my skinks Pedigree becuase I got sick of them dying when I fed those "balanced, healthy diets". Clue is dying right now, as I speak, and my vet can't even help. Because I believed I knew better than people who'd been keeping skinks for decades. It's a god-awful feeling to have killed your pets because you followed a fad. I'm not going to keep quiet when I see other people following my mistakes.

Wellness may be healthier. It's not proven. If you want to use it, or recommend it, have at it. I'm not arguing against Wellness (if you recommend a diet that I know will hurt skinks (chicken-based) I'll argue). But Pedigree is proven to keep skinks healthy for long lives and strong offspring. It's not a bad food.

[Rhianimal]

(if you recommend a diet that I know will hurt skinks (chicken-based) I'll argue).

Is chicken itself bad, or was this an instance of someone feeding a diet that was mostly chicken?

[Fatal_S]

Mostly-chicken diet. No supplements. Sorry, I should have been more clear. Chicken itself is a much-loved food here, but because it's so bad for calcium a mostly-chicken diet will cause severe problems.

[Jeff]

So during your research, have you kept hundreds of skinks for over 20 years and done controlled studies where different groups were fed either Pedigree dog food or other things so that you could compare the results? I know people who have.

Do what you want, but don't tell other people who have real-life experience that you know better because you read some labels.

At this point you are being rude, sarcastic and disrespectful. I don't know that I will continue to respond to you past this, due to that, nor that I will really take much interest in your words in future.

Pedigree and other dog foods made in the same way are the cause of obesity, health problems, and death in dogs that are fed it, due to the little care taken in quality control, poor ingredients, and poor nutrition. The fact that often, the meat used in these foods are from diseased animals that are veiwed unfit for human consumption is a big deal to me as well. I'm not talking food we cosmetically would choose not to eat, but meat that could seriously harm us, and COULD harm our dogs (and by relation, maybe even our skinks). This food also has carcinogens in it, and unhealthy preservatives. Any amount of research into dog foods would tell you this. I'm guessing someone picked some off the shelf, found it was cheap and worked okay, so continued to use it for skinks. Maybe there haven't been any problems yet. Doesn't mean there wont be if someone gets another contaminated batch.

I didn't tell anyone with "real life experience that know better" to do anything. I told Mel it's good it is working out for her, but that I personally avoid those foods. I told Justyn that Wellness is better, but I doubt that he or she has much more experience than I, basing in that they too are a new skink owner. I'm basing it off of my own research. I'm not about to tell someone who has had experience with it that they are wrong, but I am presenting that I would choose not to use it, and advise against it from a personal stand point based on my research and knowledge of dog food.

I would also like to tell you that I don't appreciate your "I am right because I have been in the hobby _____ years" attitude. New information always comes into play when it comes to keeping animals, and unless you have done any research into Wellness to find that it is HARMFUL to skinks (it isn't, from MY research), I see no reason for you to attack me. The attitude you are displaying is why there are folk out there who still think it is appropriate to beat or de-bark a dog, declaw a cat, and more on topic, feed captive snakes live food. Perhaps at the time that people started keeping skinks, Pedigree was considered a good food, or even WAS a good food, but the fact is that given the choices of far more nutritious, safe options, I will choose them over Pedigree any day.

I know it is never pleasant when someone points out that you have made an incorrect statement. And I apologize for pointing out that my claim is based on actual experience with bts while yours is not. It never seems fair to an inexperienced person when experienced people base their claims on... experience.

You keep arguing that Wellness has "good" stuff on it and Pedigree is bad. Everyone knows what is in Pedigree and what is in Wellness. The problem is that you assume that by knowing the ingredients, you know how each food will affect a BTS. You do not. After seeing the results of years of research, I do know how each affects BTS. The research you keep referring to has NOTHING to do with BTS. It has to do with the formulas for different brands of dog food. The research I am referring to, has EVERYTHING to do with BTS. There is no question, if I had to eat one or the other brand myself, I would choose the Wellness, but it is not for me, it is for my skinks. They do not have the same needs that I do. I don't base my idea about what is best for my skinks on what is best for me.

If arguing in favor of FACTS against false statements is rude, then I guess I'm guilty as charged, and as long as you continue to state that it is a fact that Wellness is better for BTS than Pedigree I continue to point out that you have absolutely no evidence to base that claim on. You think showing that Wellness having "superior" ingredients = Wellness is better for BTS. That is a false assumption.

If instead of immediately telling me that I am wrong in spite of years of experience, you would have asked why I made the claim that Pedigree is just as healthy as any other dog food for BTS, I would have been happy to take the time to explain how each of the things you claim are bad about it are either neutral or GOOD for BTS. If you think it stinks being challenged by me, try to imagine what it is like to be told regularly that years of experience mean NOTHING, by people who have none. That is why the majority of the most experienced people refuse to waste their time on forums. This in turn leads to the best information being kept from everyone, and a lot of false statements being passed around as fact.