Herp Vet says never to feed skinks cat/dog food

[Rhianimal]

Mostly-chicken diet. No supplements. Sorry, I should have been more clear. Chicken itself is a much-loved food here, but because it's so bad for calcium a mostly-chicken diet will cause severe problems.

Ahh, I see! That seems like a bad diet. My skink gets roasted chicken as protein occasionally. Would feel bad if I had to deny him one of his favorite foods.

[Fatal_S]

Reason I use chicken-diet as an example is because that was the healthy fad for a few years. Zach stated chicken was low in fat = good. He never said only-chicken, but because at the same time the dogfood = evil and supplements = evil fads were going, the idea was that a mostly-chicken-for-protein diet was great. I took it as word-of-god, ignored the people who tried to tell me the facts, and then my skinks got all bendy and started dying. Looked at the real facts, threw out the fads, and everyone benefits now.

I won't get upset when someone says other things are better (ex: vet says bugs/rats are better than dogfood, members say Wellness is better than Pedigree), because they could be right (they should work on some experiments to get proof) but I do get upset when someone says decent things are bad. Dogfood is not bad, Pedigree is not bad.

Jeff, awesome posts today!

[LarissaLurid]

I agree that the kibble should be replaced with canned food. Or just make a meat mix, that's what I currently feed mine. (along with veggies)

[tylociraptor]

Reason I use chicken-diet as an example is because that was the healthy fad for a few years. Zach stated chicken was low in fat = good. He never said only-chicken, but because at the same time the dogfood = evil and supplements = evil fads were going, the idea was that a mostly-chicken-for-protein diet was great. I took it as word-of-god, ignored the people who tried to tell me the facts, and then my skinks got all bendy and started dying. Looked at the real facts, threw out the fads, and everyone benefits now.

I won't get upset when someone says other things are better (ex: vet says bugs/rats are better than dogfood, members say Wellness is better than Pedigree), because they could be right (they should work on some experiments to get proof) but I do get upset when someone says decent things are bad. Dogfood is not bad, Pedigree is not bad.

Jeff, awesome posts today!

I am going to have to respectfully disagree. Pedigree is most certainly bad. But like I said, respectfully, unlike some folk

[Fatal_S]

I am going to have to respectfully disagree. Pedigree is most certainly bad. But like I said, respectfully, unlike some folk

Pretty sure the vet will say the exact same thing if corrected about his/her view on dogfood.

Still worth trying though. We may not be able to change minds already made up, but it's always worth pointing out misinformation. Maybe you're vet will be like my nice one and be willing to listen I love my nice vet, even if she doesn't know everything, because she cares. And I appreciate my know-it-all vet, because she can be a huge help when I need it

[tylociraptor]

So during your research, have you kept hundreds of skinks for over 20 years and done controlled studies where different groups were fed either Pedigree dog food or other things so that you could compare the results? I know people who have.

Do what you want, but don't tell other people who have real-life experience that you know better because you read some labels.

At this point you are being rude, sarcastic and disrespectful. I don't know that I will continue to respond to you past this, due to that, nor that I will really take much interest in your words in future.

Pedigree and other dog foods made in the same way are the cause of obesity, health problems, and death in dogs that are fed it, due to the little care taken in quality control, poor ingredients, and poor nutrition. The fact that often, the meat used in these foods are from diseased animals that are veiwed unfit for human consumption is a big deal to me as well. I'm not talking food we cosmetically would choose not to eat, but meat that could seriously harm us, and COULD harm our dogs (and by relation, maybe even our skinks). This food also has carcinogens in it, and unhealthy preservatives. Any amount of research into dog foods would tell you this. I'm guessing someone picked some off the shelf, found it was cheap and worked okay, so continued to use it for skinks. Maybe there haven't been any problems yet. Doesn't mean there wont be if someone gets another contaminated batch.

I didn't tell anyone with "real life experience that know better" to do anything. I told Mel it's good it is working out for her, but that I personally avoid those foods. I told Justyn that Wellness is better, but I doubt that he or she has much more experience than I, basing in that they too are a new skink owner. I'm basing it off of my own research. I'm not about to tell someone who has had experience with it that they are wrong, but I am presenting that I would choose not to use it, and advise against it from a personal stand point based on my research and knowledge of dog food.

I would also like to tell you that I don't appreciate your "I am right because I have been in the hobby _____ years" attitude. New information always comes into play when it comes to keeping animals, and unless you have done any research into Wellness to find that it is HARMFUL to skinks (it isn't, from MY research), I see no reason for you to attack me. The attitude you are displaying is why there are folk out there who still think it is appropriate to beat or de-bark a dog, declaw a cat, and more on topic, feed captive snakes live food. Perhaps at the time that people started keeping skinks, Pedigree was considered a good food, or even WAS a good food, but the fact is that given the choices of far more nutritious, safe options, I will choose them over Pedigree any day.

I know it is never pleasant when someone points out that you have made an incorrect statement. And I apologize for pointing out that my claim is based on actual experience with bts while yours is not. It never seems fair to an inexperienced person when experienced people base their claims on... experience.

You keep arguing that Wellness has "good" stuff on it and Pedigree is bad. Everyone knows what is in Pedigree and what is in Wellness. The problem is that you assume that by knowing the ingredients, you know how each food will affect a BTS. You do not. After seeing the results of years of research, I do know how each affects BTS. The research you keep referring to has NOTHING to do with BTS. It has to do with the formulas for different brands of dog food. The research I am referring to, has EVERYTHING to do with BTS. There is no question, if I had to eat one or the other brand myself, I would choose the Wellness, but it is not for me, it is for my skinks. They do not have the same needs that I do. I don't base my idea about what is best for my skinks on what is best for me.

If arguing in favor of FACTS against false statements is rude, then I guess I'm guilty as charged, and as long as you continue to state that it is a fact that Wellness is better for BTS than Pedigree I continue to point out that you have absolutely no evidence to base that claim on. You think showing that Wellness having "superior" ingredients = Wellness is better for BTS. That is a false assumption.

If instead of immediately telling me that I am wrong in spite of years of experience, you would have asked why I made the claim that Pedigree is just as healthy as any other dog food for BTS, I would have been happy to take the time to explain how each of the things you claim are bad about it are either neutral or GOOD for BTS. If you think it stinks being challenged by me, try to imagine what it is like to be told regularly that years of experience mean NOTHING, by people who have none. That is why the majority of the most experienced people refuse to waste their time on forums. This in turn leads to the best information being kept from everyone, and a lot of false statements being passed around as fact.

Well, you didn't point out that I made an incorrect statement, as I did no such thing. Pedigree is proven to be a bad food for dogs, and that is what I said. I said based on that I do not feed it to my skink. I don't think that diseased animals are neutral OR beneficial to my skink, either. In fact, I think it could easily be harmful. I am also loving how you think it's superior ingredients. No, it's better balance and less filler. These are not the same things. I will let you do your own research, I'm not going to bother digging up my own to have you tell me its wrong anyway, because you have been around longer. Things change about how we care for our animals, and I'm sorry that I choose to follow what I feel will give my skink a longer, healthier life, rather than using a food that is a potential danger, not because of the nutritional value, but because the folks running Pedigree don't care about quality control, from what I can see. I'd rather my pet NOT get some internal parasite or disease from a food!

I like how you assume I'm saying you are wrong. No, I am arguing my side, and explaining to YOU what went into MY decision. I think you have a bit of an ego problem because you are respected here, and that leads to you being disrespectful to anyone who you deem unworthy, even if that is because they are new. I'm not even saying your years of experience mean nothing, but I am saying you should realize that years of experience mean nothing IF you do not continue to learn and adapt to the knowledge that comes out. If I feed my skink nothing but raw ground beef and keep its temps at 80/60, and it manages to live for 10 years despite that, that doesn't mean that what I've done is right.

You mention that "people you know" have done experiments with skinks and what dog food is better. Well what brands were they using? All cheap, bad food of which Pedigree was the lesser of many evils? Lets see the peer reviewed papers, then. I'd especially be interested if you're including high grade foods like wellness, raw and cooked meats, AND a diet consisting of CARRION as the protein source!

But like I said, it's not about the ingredients as much as it is about the fact that the food is filled with carcinogens (okay, maybe carcinogens are an ingredient to you, whatever), diseased animals, and is recalled on a fairly often basis. And even more so, its about the fact that you are treating me like a bloody idiot just because I choose a different dog food on you, based on reasons I have researched, MYSELF. No, you like to suggest I have just "READ LABELS". You suggest that I am some kind of moron, simply because you have some years of experience behind you and seem to think that it's okay to tout that around. To me, I cannot have respect for you, no matter what you know about skinks, because you seem to think anyone who doesn't think your way deserves to be demeaned. I'm through.

[tylociraptor]

Again Ty, you are saying that Pedigree is not a nutritious, safe food, and that those of us who use it are playing with our skinks health and are behind the times. We use it because it's been proven. We're not saying don't use wellness, or insects, etc. We are saying that Pedigree is not evil and to please not tell people it is. The same way I'd ask this vet not to say dog food is evil. The vet has exactly the same reasons as you (they've done 'research' and are concerned about the animals) but that doesn't make them right, and the info they're/you're giving is tearing apart a KNOWN healthy food for BTS.

Someone did not 'find the cheapest thing and use it, and it hasn't killed the animal yet'. Someone did years upon years of trials, breeding animals, raising them on it, and keeping them to old, old ages. It is not dangerous, so please don't tell people it is. Obviously, you can use whatever, and recommend whatever, but be careful about stating your opinion (Pedrigree is bad for skinks) as truth, when you have no facts.

I feed my skinks Pedigree becuase I got sick of them dying when I fed those "balanced, healthy diets". Clue is dying right now, as I speak, and my vet can't even help. Because I believed I knew better than people who'd been keeping skinks for decades. It's a god-awful feeling to have killed your pets because you followed a fad. I'm not going to keep quiet when I see other people following my mistakes.

Wellness may be healthier. It's not proven. If you want to use it, or recommend it, have at it. I'm not arguing against Wellness (if you recommend a diet that I know will hurt skinks (chicken-based) I'll argue). But Pedigree is proven to keep skinks healthy for long lives and strong offspring. It's not a bad food.

I'm not saying that at all. Not at ALL. I am saying that Pedigree has been known to use diseased animals, contains carcinogens, and that it has been recalled for causing illness in the intended species - dogs- many times. I'm not saying wellness is healthier, I'm not saying blue buffalo is. I'm saying that I chose it because I know it is produced with better quality meats and has better quality control thus far. Hell, if you haven't noticed, many people on the site suggest Wellness. It's not until I say that Pedigree and other grocery store foods are known to be unhealthy for dogs that people jump on me. I don't trust them, is what I'm saying.

And more than anything, my responses here have been out of anger and absolute disgust that Jeff has the audacity to insinuate I'm some idiot who hasn't done my research. I don't care how respected or knowledgeable he is. It seems to me that he's just TRYING to INSULT me. Well, I HAVE done my research, as I have said. And yes, I cannot say for a fact that Pedigree's NUTRITIONAL VALUE is better or worse for a skink, but I can say that diseases, parasites, and other icky things aren't going to HELP my skink for sure!!! And whether or not the cans you folks have had have had that, I can't say. I'm not willing to take that risk. If it came out that wellness had just as many problems as pedigree, all of a sudden, I'd change my food. But the fact is I have made my decision for a reason, I have presented the reason that I have made that decision, and all of a sudden I'm telling everyone else what to feed their skinks!? I can only read one post I have made that would insinuate that! But now, I'm going to step out of this discussion, I'm a bit tired of Jeff telling me I'm an idiot for- oh, i don't know... doing research on my own and DARING to suggest something different from the apparent self appointed guru of skinks. Oh, but I'm a newb, so the fact that I have read and research has no value. I guess I should just make assumptions about the next pet I buy instead of researching... everyone apparently knows that researching as a new person to an animal isn't worth crap -_-

[Richard.C]

Hmmm,i feed predominantly straight pedigree to my animals,they are far from obese,a pr of stumpies i had for 16 years,a ten year okd make and 9 year old femake they produced and raised on pedigree are mating right now,not to mention pushing 20 years old blotchies still in brumation that will likely have babies again this season,eg big female in my avatar

Like it or loathe it,but dont say its bad because others do,remember the world was thought to be flat once

[Jeff]

It amazes me that you still can't understand that some things that are bad for one species to eat, can be good for another species to eat. All of your claims are based on what is good for dogs. No one is arguing about DOGS! This is a bluetongue skink forum, not a dog forum. Some things that will poison one animal are a normal part of the diet of another animal. Dogs and BTS are not the same. You can not decide what is good for a BTS simply by what is good for a dog. Remembering that we are talking about bluetonngue skinks, and not dogs;

Well, you didn't point out that I made an incorrect statement, as I did no such thing.

Incorrect statement #1 -  "I told Justyn that Wellness is better"

Incorrect statement #2 - "I am going to have to respectfully disagree. Pedigree is most certainly bad"

Incorrect statement #3 - "My research has shown me that pedigree, iams, purina... they are all bad."


"I am also loving how you think it's superior ingredients. No, it's better balance and less filler. These are not the same things."

Huh? how is it not the same thing? The fillers and everything else in the dog food are ingredients. And in your opinion, they are inferior ingredients. Nevermind that the fillers might actually make the dog food more closely resemble the balance that a BTS would eat in the wild than the other stuff in the dog food.

"I will let you do your own research, I'm not going to bother digging up my own to have you tell me its wrong anyway,"

No one EVER said your research was wrong, just that it is irrelevent! How does it help you to know what is in the food if you don't know what BTS need? You keep trying to argue something that no one is arguing with you! Like has been said already, I KNOW what is in both foods. Why do you keep trying to tell me that Wellness is better because it does or doesn't have this or that? You need to listen to what is being said. All the crap that is in Pedigree results in the healthiest skinks, based on DECADES of experience.

" because you have been around longer. Things change about how we care for our animals, and I'm sorry that I choose to follow what I feel will give my skink a longer, healthier life, rather than using a food that is a potential danger..."

You have ignored it when Melanie pointed out that people are not feeding cheap dog food just because that is what has been done for years. This is NOT the "old" way. Just 5 years ago you would have been hard pressed to find anyone on a forum who would recommend feeding BTS a dog food based diet. It was considered evil by the casual keepers. Only after skinks fed other ways started getting sick and dying did people start turning to the long-time breeders to find out why their skinks were healthy. The breeders themselves were not simply feeding dog food because that is all they had ever tried, they tried everything from fresh meat to rodents to high end dog food. The conclusion: Nothing works better than cheap dog food. You can deny it as long as you want, but the facts are not on your side.

"I like how you assume I'm saying you are wrong."

You have clearly indicated that you think I am wrong when I say that Pedigree is just as good for BTS as Wellness.

"No, I am arguing my side, and explaining to YOU what went into MY decision."

I told you from the beginning, do whatever you want to do. Just do NOT make false statements and expect them to go unchallenged.

" I'm not even saying your years of experience mean nothing, but I am saying you should realize that years of experience mean nothing IF you do not continue to learn and adapt to the knowledge that comes out."

I have already explained to you that my position is based on new information. I am constantly learning. One of the main ways I learn is from talking to people with more experience than myself. I may not always agree 100% with everything they say or do, but if one of them pointed out that something I said was wrong, and showed me the proof of it, I would certainly not continue to argue with them based on what is good for dogs.

"If I feed my skink nothing but raw ground beef and keep its temps at 80/60, and it manages to live for 10 years despite that, that doesn't mean that what I've done is right."

No, and that is why you should listen to people who have kept skinks for over 20 years and can tell you from experience what works best.

"You mention that "people you know" have done experiments with skinks and what dog food is better. Well what brands were they using? All cheap, bad food of which Pedigree was the lesser of many evils? Lets see the peer reviewed papers, then. I'd especially be interested if you're including high grade foods like wellness, raw and cooked meats, AND a diet consisting of CARRION as the protein source!

Why would you assume that? Why would anyone compare the difference between two comparable foods? They did controlled studies feeding some groups Pedigree, some groups High end dog food, some groups fresh meat, etc. Pedigree produced the least evil results.

" But like I said, it's not about the ingredients as much as it is about the fact that the food is filled with carcinogens (okay, maybe carcinogens are an ingredient to you, whatever), diseased animals, and is recalled on a fairly often basis. And even more so, its about the fact that you are treating me like a bloody idiot just because I choose a different dog food on you,"

Througout all those recalls, and with all those ingredients, the skinks have continued to thrive. Gosh, maybe that stuff doesnn't matter to BTS. Apparently, anytime someone points out that you are wrong, that equals treating you like a bloody idiot. Are you suggesting that we should allow you to make false statements without questioning you because it might hurt your feelings if we say anything?

based on reasons I have researched, MYSELF. No, you like to suggest I have just "READ LABELS". You suggest that I am some kind of moron, simply because you have some years of experience behind you and seem to think that it's okay to tout that around. To me, I cannot have respect for you, no matter what you know about skinks, because you seem to think anyone who doesn't think your way deserves to be demeaned. I'm through.

My opinion of you is not because you disagree with me. It is because you refuse to listen to facts. I couldn't care less if you agree with me. I also don't really care what you feed your skink. I just will not allow you to make false statements on the forum without pointing them out. You simply choose to present other facts that have no bearing on the statements I have made. I am not arguing with you about what is in the dog food. I have simply tried to explain to you that your statements about how bad Pedigree dog food is, do not apply to bluetongue skins. Sometimes having too much book knowledge prevents people from learning. If you could just let go of you opinion about how horrible Pedigree is for dogs for one minute, you may be able to see that no one has suggested feeding it to dogs. It is bluetongue skinks that I am talking about. Pedigree works great for feeding bluetongue skinks. When you deny that, you are simply wrong.

[Lea]

I'm not going to comment on the dog/cat food debate, but I will back up one very excellent point made here, by Jeff. A great example of something found toxic to one or many animals, but safe for blue tongues, is the plant salvation Jane, or echium plantagineum, which grows wild over much of Australia. It is lethal to cattle and most grazing animals and other mammals, but it both nutritious and palatable for blue tongues, with many wild skinks on the Barron salt plains, finding it a good source of food during the harsh summers.

Try to resist the urge to compare one family or even class, of animals, with another, as they can vary, not only within a species, but also a subspecies.

[tylociraptor]

Whatever brother, whatever.I'm not even gonna read your insults. Have a nice day.

[Scotts1au]

My philsophy with omnivorous animals is not to try not to feed too much of anything as a staple. although my blueys end up eating a lot of dog food - just the way it goes. Never had any feeding related nutritional problems in 30 years or so with them, 100% breeding success with blotches, go figure.

[kl]

I'm just curious but what research have you read, written by actual scientists, nutritionists, etc., that stated that Pedigree is bad? I'd like to be able to read that research to determine myself if it is important information or not. I feed the stuff to my skinks as well as my dog. I will hold off on my judgement until I read this research but as of now, I've not heard nor read any proof of Pedigree being bad. Please provide any links to what you have read about this brand of food.

KL

[Spindown]

pretty much ALL dog foods that are produced are bad for dogs! I didnt read this whole thing, but vets still dont know as much as some hobbyists do about certain species...
Also, I just want to point out, that The AVA in the USA is funded by commercial pet food companies...not exactly non-biased.

Also, there have been recalls on just about every food brand out there. It happens.

[kl]

But there are also recalls on food for human consumption. If it happens with our food it's certainly going to happen with pet food. I still want to see research on this subject rather than take the words of forum members who are not scientists. We are not the true experts except in what our own experiences are with our own animals. Somebody please provide me a link to any studies you have read and that is the only way I can decide for myself.

KL

[El Lobo]

Could have been an informative discussion had the occasional fact been presented.

I don't feed dog food so I'll keep out of that but I saw the claim of a carcinogen in dog food made several times. Could it be that was a reference from a few years ago when melamine was found in some dog foods? Don't be mistaken that it was just dumped in pet food as it also turned up in human infant formula; it elevates the protein level.

Grain, including that used as filler in animal feed, always has the possibility of being contaminated with mycotoxins, most notably produced by the fungi Aspergillus.

To the OP who seems to have been all but forgotten. You will need to talk to your vet to see how open-minded she is to receiving information. The diet she has proposed is not appropriate for the long term good health of your skink. Some vets will not accept they could be wrong relying on our reverence of their qualifications, but they don't always have the knowledge and experience of the needs of all their patients. If they are dogmatic it is time to move on.

[Rani-May]

Just gonna add my say here, my herp vet was all for dog food, but other meats as well, like chicken. I think nearly every individual, including herp vets will have their own personal opinion. maybe call up a few herp vets (saves money as its not necessary to go in) and ask them the same question, I guarantee you will get a couple different answers. which is why after you ask them, you should research it yourself and see what you believe is best for your skink. Its no different to every single parent having different views on what they should and shouldn't feed their children. In the end its your choice and you have to decide what you think is healthiest for Igor

[kl]

The purpose of this forum is for people to exchange ideas, opinions, etc and I respect that. I've always said that when we go on these forums we are never going to always agree or disagree with everyone. This particular subject is quite controversial and usually sparks some strong debates of which there are going to be very different opinions.

KL

[justyna.ewa]

Just gonna add my say here, my herp vet was all for dog food, but other meats as well, like chicken. I think nearly every individual, including herp vets will have their own personal opinion. maybe call up a few herp vets (saves money as its not necessary to go in) and ask them the same question, I guarantee you will get a couple different answers. which is why after you ask them, you should research it yourself and see what you believe is best for your skink. Its no different to every single parent having different views on what they should and shouldn't feed their children. In the end its your choice and you have to decide what you think is healthiest for Igor

Okay, thanks Rani I will do what I judge best.

@kl: I agree, I just wanted to get some opinions out there, and I most definitely got them.

@Fatal_S, etc: Thanks for the informative flame war :p I will keep feeding dog food. I agree that it's a balanced omnivorous diet, and I personally see no reason why another omnivorous animal should not be eating it. However, how do you guys keep the wet dog food good for so long? My parents are cat/dog vets, and say that I should use dry food as it keeps much longer than wet food. Since I only feed 1-2 time per week, I'd have to get a can every time, use a spoonful and then throw it out.

Thanks for all the suggestions out there, this was very helpful.

[Lea]

Whatever brother, whatever.I'm not even gonna read your insults. Have a nice day.

You haven't been insulted, tylociraptor. You have just had your pride dented, perhaps ...

Please let us all try to remain open minded and without judgement when we have these discussions. Too often they deteriorate in to something of a personal battle between one or two members, and I am not excluded from this! Remember why we are here and what we want to achieve and hopefully our topics can remain informative, enlightening and insightful, even if we do not always agree with one another.