My skink's eye issue (MANY pictures, good and bad)

[Hijinks]

My skink began squinting his left eye one day after I began using a Reptisun Compact Fluorescent 10.0 at a distance of 12 inches. By day three, when I finally figured out the cause, both of his eyes were completely shut nearly all of the time.

Apparently some of these bulbs were shipped without warnings and operating instructions. And I, being a total n00b, and reading all over the place that reptiles need to be pretty close to the UV source to get the benefits, thought 12 inches was safe. (Thread where I found out this information: http://www.redearslider.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9236)

I turned the bulb off, and the next day he was keeping his eyes open more, but a new problem was evident. His eyes looked "funny" and small. Just one day after that, his lower eyelids became stiff and he was obviously having trouble getting them shut. I put a humid hide near his basking light and he spent nearly all of his time in there, which seemed to provide some relief. The following pictures track the progress from shut eyes, to scary crusty eyes, to back to normal as of TODAY after a shed. This is over a period of two weeks.

Eyes shut.


"Weirdness" beginning to show.



The condition worsens.



Now this is where it gets scary.



Like an hour after those pictures were taken, he rubbed that nasty bit of skin loose from his left eye, and I saw an improvement. I found it and tried to squish it between my fingers. It was rock hard and it actually snapped (it did not bend)



This morning I caught him drinking before I left for work. His lights weren't even on yet! But notice that the eye still looks bad.


(Okay, this one was just cute.)

He shed while I was at work, and I came home to this handsome face!









He's feeling a lot better now. He headbangs his approval.




I really feel ridiculous and guilty, and was close to taking him to the vet. Hope this helps someone. I am interested to know if anyone has had success with these bulbs, or if I should scrap it and get another brand (or a tube).

[russman]

Well half a cheer for you for catching it, researching, and trying to improve the situation. The other half to your skink for improving. The article said to keep it at a further distance for 2 to 3 weeks, so maybe after that time, it might be ok.

Im glad you're pal is doing better, anyway.

[Funda]

Great to see that his doing better!
Love the headbanging

f.C

[LittleFoot]

Such a handsome guy

[KyleWeiss]

That was an excellent photospread. I really commend you on taking pictures and taking a learning/scientific approach to the problem! This will help and possibly identify problems people will have down the road. Very, very well done!

I'm skeptical it was simply the UV bulb that did this, I feel it may be just a coincidence, but I can see if the eyes were irritated, the bright light didn't help all too much. I keep my bulbs within 12" of my skink, and he spends a lot of time under it. In fact, many keepers use the 12" rule with their bulbs. The one you use (ReptiSun) is reliable and a good product to my knowledge.

It's also very possible your skink may be sensitive to UV somehow. There's many possibilities. You may want to test this and see if it happens again. If you get the same results after setting up your vivarium the same way you did when the problem started, you can go from there.

I think it might have simply been dried shed uncomfortably situated around the eye. Do you have a humid hide for shedding? If it's a shed issue, this will help immensely.

KW

[Zach]

Hmm, I wonder if he doesn't have something stuck down in his eye....

[Leigh]

Zach, you posted a link to UV research, that site was exellent, I think the problem could have been a mixture of the up comming shed and the fact that the light was new, they{that site you mentioned} said that the most UV is produced in the "burn in phase"which is the first so many hours of lamp use, I dont personally like a concentrated UV source for this reason and do like the longer tubes, you get a much better dissipation from a tube, I think he got sun burn on the dead/dry pre shed eyelids, anyway glad to here he's making a come back.

[kris21]

I hope he's better, poor little buggers eye looked painful

Kris

[Usersafe]

Zach, you posted a link to UV research, that site was exellent, I think the problem could have been a mixture of the up comming shed and the fact that the light was new, they{that site you mentioned} said that the most UV is produced in the "burn in phase"which is the first so many hours of lamp use, I dont personally like a concentrated UV source for this reason and do like the longer tubes, you get a much better dissipation from a tube, I think he got sun burn on the dead/dry pre shed eyelids, anyway glad to here he's making a come back.

That was me that posted the link to the yahoo UV group. I've learned a heck of a lot about UV light, bulbs, you name it since I signed up for it.

Steve

[Hijinks]

Each day I'd inspect his eyes with a magnifying glass hoping it was as simple as something stuck in there, but that was not it. His eyelids were clearly messed up. I could almost see the healthy tissue underneath trying to move, but they were so stiff on top that he had real trouble getting them shut.

He did shed around the same time it started. And maybe that contributed as Leigh suggested, but I really think the bulb is the major source. It started when the bulb was introduced and began to clear when the bulb was taken away. I found a lot of cases on turtle and bearded dragon forums. I read they cause something like our "snow blindness", and maybe having his eyes shut all the time exposed delicate skin that wouldn't otherwise get so much exposure. I don't know. I'm talking out my butt.

I am hesitant to just turn the light on to just see if it happens again. It'd be a good conclusive test, but I'm not going to experiment on him.

He certainly LOOKS better, but is he? I feel like I still see some damage on one of his eyes. You can't see it in the new pictures, but that "dip" present in the 8th picture I posted is still barely there. I've been watching him on my webcam and he's been hanging out with his eyes shut, but he could be simply lazy and chillin'.

The bottom line is that I didn't follow the manufacturer's instructions, and something went wrong as a result. I am hesitant to continue with this bulb, but I've raised it to a distance of 18" as recommended by ZooMed and I'll have it on in shorter periods when I'm home to observe. Because they wouldn't release a product that would cause so much damage if used as instructed, right?

RIGHT?

[JWSR]

These pages and others on the site will give you some understanding of the difference between the uv output of the sun and that of these 5% and 10% fluorescent UVB tubes. AKA Reptisun 5.0 and 10.0, both tube and compact. On a 5.0, 5% of the bulb's total light output is UVB. About 20-30% of it is UVA, and the remainder is visible light. A 10.0 is 10% UVB

This will show you how many micro-watts/ square centimeter are required to synthesize vitamin D3. Look at the test result charts to see the comparitively small amount even the 10.0 puts out at 12 inches. That's suppossed to be optimal distance for this bulb, but most tests with solarmeters show 6" to be best. Maximum is 20". Even 1-2" away is ok, but not to sit that close all day. My BD likes it about 5" from his 10.0 most of the time. I seriously doubt this bulb had any effect on your skink unless he had his eyes right against the bulb for about 12 hours straight.

The Australian mid-day sun is putting out almost 400 microwatts/square centimeter. The average UVB from a fluorescent bulb is anywhere from 12-20 microwatts at 12" When you read the tests of these bulbs, you'll see why your herp is safer in his cage under these lights than he is out in the back yard as far as possible damage to eyes or skin is concerned

Anyway, this site has a lot af good information on all aspects of UV lighting, and test results and charts for many of the current bulbs on the market.

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/fluorescenttuberesults.htm

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/compactlamps.htm

Here's one with some good Q&A
http://www.reptileuv.com/mega-ray-produ ... .php?nav=h

Hope your little guy is doing well!

[KyleWeiss]

This is a great thread with a lot of good UV information...

KW

[Hijinks]

Jerry, thank you very much for that reply. The whole thing seems to be a relatively new phenomenon. I looked up the UV Meter Owners group mentioned earlier and found this:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/UVB_ ... ssage/5225

If anyone has the time/interest/patience to read that, please do. It's very interesting. I'd love to know what everybody makes of it. I don't really have a foundation of knowledge to draw useful conclusions, but they seem to imply that even at a "safe" distance these bulbs aren't mimicking the sun as well as the traditional fluorescent tubes.

Although they look SO much better, I don't think my skink's eyes have fully recovered. The left one still appears a bit stiff when he tries to close it, although they look pretty good when he's wide awake.



I told him I was gonna make him into chop suey.

[russman]

Hilarious picture.

[Funda]

Cute photos!

f.C

[Leigh]

What could be being over looked is its the UVA content that burns the skin{JWSR, states 20/30% of the light output is}which is triple the usefull UVB in a 10.0 tube, like sun bed tubes give you cancer because they produce prodomenently UVA, you dont see it because its a different spectrum than our UVB tubes

[JWSR]

Jerry, thank you very much for that reply. The whole thing seems to be a relatively new phenomenon. I looked up the UV Meter Owners group mentioned earlier and found this

That's a very good article Hijinks. I didn't know about the new phosphors being used. I'd say now that this calls for some close observation depending on the lamp used.

The only time I had a questionable experience was when I invested around $80 in a Mac Industries Mega-Ray mercury vapor 60 watt with external ballast for my BD when he was about 6 months old. This one.............
http://www.reptileuv.com/megaray-eb-60- ... mp-kit.php
I followed all recommendations by the manufacturer, and even added an inch or two to it's 12" minimum to play it safe, keeping it 13 to 14 inches from his basking spot. I added enough supplemental heat via ceramic because these don't put out enough heat for basking.

I put him on his basking rock after eating, and I've got to admit, his colors never looked so great being under this light. But..........after he left the basking rock that day, he would never get back under it. I even increased the distance. Still, no go. So, I stuck it away in the accessory drawer where it's been ever since. I put back the 36" Reptisun 10.0 and all has been well since then.

I think lizards are more sensitive to this than we know. They are better judges of when and how much to bask in the wild, but when captive, they can't turn the light on and off. So it's up to us to provide the correct low, slow dose amount for a light that's going to be on all day.

There is a way around this entire issue. And I know of one BD breeder that does it successfully. When I was researching breeders of BD's I contacted Vicky Dachiu, of Dachiu Bearded Dragons. She said she used no UVB light source on any of their dragons, from hatchlings to adult breeders, and has never had any problems arise. Instead, she supplements daily with calcium with D3. So , instead of them synthesizing it, utilizing UVB rays, they are supplied it in their diet. I still use both to be on the safe side, but most days plain calcium, and two to three days a week, calcium with D3.

Here's a quote from her care sheet..............

If choosing to use a full spectrum light, the bulb should be within 6-10 inches of the basking area, so they can absorb the UV-A and UV-B to manufacture their vitamin D3 for bone formation. These bulbs need to be replaced after 6 months time. Once again, it is not vital AS LONG AS there is proper supplementation in their diet and enough light intensity.
We feel UVB indoor lights are not needed if dragons are fed a proper diet; and supplemented with Vitamin D3. A calcium/D3 supplement, like RepCal can be used in place of the UVB bulb. The dragon still received its needed Vitamin D3, but instead of producing it itself, it is given dietarily.

This is a good topic for discussion, though it's been debated to death. We do know they have to have D3. But we, as the responsible "parents," need to be sure of the amount of UVB they're absorbing to synthesize it.

It is my personal preference, but I am quite satisfied with the performance of the Reptisun 10.0, and plan to stay with what has worked well for me.

Good thread, and love the pics Hijinks! I'm so glad he's getting better.

[Hijinks]

That bit about the D3 supplements is encouraging, because I have been keeping the light off and have only just begun to turn it back on for short periods. I was worried I may be doing hidden damage worse than eye sunburn. We'll be taking a trip to the park this weekend for some real sun. I have been supplementing calcium w/ D3 with each meal, and Reptivite every other meal. I've also been offering high calcium greens along with the protein. I am very proud of him for actually eating the mustard greens, because I tasted them myself and they're revolting.

I think he really is feeling better, and I am very glad. He did remain quite active through the whole ordeal, and he never lost his appetite. I am keeping the humid hide around in case he starts to feel more dryness and needs some relief, but I haven't seen him hanging out in it ever since he shed. Instead he's basically been mooning the webcam for the past 20 minutes.



That article does make me more nervous than ever. I wonder if I can even get my money back for the bulb if I contact the manufacturer. I am a schmuck because I paid like $50 for it at Petco, but it's more like $30 everywhere online. In researching this, I've only seen good comments about the Arcadia compact fluorescent: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... &N=0&Nty=1
I'd like to stick with a CF if I can because of the ease of mounting the light fixture, and adjusting the distance for the burn in period.

[JWSR]

hey, just a personal note on Dr Foster Smith.com; they are about the highest priced internet site for reptiles that exists. They are are all hype, and I can't see how they can rip off the general herp keepers with their prices that are sometimes as much a 10 - 30% higher than most reputable reptile sites for the very same product.

Again, just my personal opinion, but when I can save on the very same item, I'm going for it. Ask Ray. He and I have both been purdhasing from www.reptilesupply.com for quite a while now. Good prices, fast delivery, and excellant customer service. There's also........... www.herplupplies.com and www.bigappleherpl.com All, in my opinion, are far better than these two Veterinarians that are charging extraordinary prices for common reptile products. Don't be sucked in by their hype on any given product. Look around and do some research.

And BTW, there is no burn in period for a fluorescent, they start deteriorating from day one. Mercury vapor has what they call a burn in period, and without a UV meter you're not going to know anything about it.

Just my opinion, but you are getting ripped on your light. Here's my price at Reptile Supply for a 3 foot 10.0 fluorescent tube.......... $18.00

[Hijinks]

Oh yeah, thanks for those references -- I always comparison shop. It's just that that's the only US site I could find that carries that brand. I even tried Froogle.